Help! Tiled wetroom floor looks perfect but grout doesn't dry out!

[Dan]

Thanks for popping over Kris! 🙂

 

[Paula]

I take it you think that now that it's sealed near the drain that the next available exit point is near the screen ??

Hi Kris, thanks very much for looking at this! As you can see, this is a long-running saga....first noticed dark patches on the grout in the actual shower cubicle (well, behind the single glass sheet separating the shower area from the rest of the wet room) almost as soon as we started using the new shower a year ago. They didn't ever really dry out, and so, having taken advice from the lovely members of this forum, my tiler scraped out the grout, flooded the joints with more adhesive (in case there were gaps where the water was accumulating under the tiles) and then re-grouted with waterproof epoxy. Now the actual shower area looks fine (epoxy doesn't show wet patches!), but the dark patches have spread beyond the shower area (ie. beyond the screen) where, of course, the grout is the original, cementitious grout. To be honest there was a small amount of creeping here before we did the epoxy, but it is now much worse, almost as if as the water can't evaporate in the actual shower area, it is travelling further to areas where it can evaporate through the cementitious grout (ie. beyond the shower screen).

We have sealed the shower screen with mastic, but the join between the waste and the tiles is very small, and the tiler did his best to scrape out all the old grout and replace with epoxy, but there are still some tiny bits of old grout there (see the picture I posted above). So I suppose water could be seeping through somehow at this join, but surely this would always happen in a wet room situation, as most people don't use epoxy? Yes, you are right, the next exit point is the screen, but this sits on the tiles and we have put mastic all round, so it's hard to see how water is getting in. I'll post a couple of pictures of the bathroom set up so you can see what's happening. Any advice gratefully received!

 

[The D]

i will put £10.00 on it being a leak from the shower control. any takers ??

 

[The D]

by the way your bathroom is lovely

 

[Dan]

i will put £10.00 on it being a leak from the shower control. any takers ??

I'm starting to think it's the only option to be honest.

 

[Paula]

by the way your bathroom is lovely

Ah, thanks! That was the idea...but I must admit I haven't been able to enjoy it properly due to all this. Every time I go in there my eyes are drawn to the damp patches on the floor!

I'm grateful to everyone for all their help so far. Hopefully we'll be able to find a solution (and this will be of some help to others who may come across this situation in the future....).

It's a Crosswater valve, by the way.

 

[Paula]

Well anything is possible, this is just a slight variation on what Geoff suggested, now I've read it 😀 sorry Geoff
But if u can take the water away from the shower and it reappears hopefully that should point to it being a problem on the feed side.

If not, it's either getting thro tiles during use, or the drain could be failing.

I'd leave it running a fair while in case it has to build up somewhere first.

Yes, I will do that. We'll leave it until the weekend to dry out as much as it can, and then try and do what you said. . But I suppose it could be a leak from either of the shower heads, or the valve itself? We had an excellent plumber put it all in, so I doubt it's faulty workmanship on his part....but you never know. Or it could be a problem with the equipment.

Thanks for the suggestion, and I'll let you know what happens!

 

[Paula]

i will put £10.00 on it being a leak from the shower control. any takers ??

By the way what did you think of the picture of the waste I posted? Do you think it could be leaking around the join between the metal and the tiles?

 

[padtheplumber]

Do you know what type of pipework was used for the installation to the shower & heads, ie copper / soldered or plastic / pushfit? Is there any access behind the valve, like an airing cupboard - somewhere a hole could be cut in a stud wall to check for leaks? Can the cover plate for the shower be removed?
These are the sorts of things I'd be looking at first if I had been called out to investigate for a leak.
Looks like a nice job by the way 🙂

 

[Paula]

It's possible I think yeah.

It's starting to get quite hard for us to troubleshoot because we're just winging it a bit here.

Do you think it's worth getting a plumber in to actually take a look. They see this all the time I'm sure. Or even a tiler, but I can't see how, until we've found out what's going on, a tiler can actually trace the leak if he's not a plumber.

By all means keep contributing to the thread and maybe we will pull this off for you. 😀

But consider getting a plumber round! I'm sure this must be doing your tree in!

Yes, I agree! And yes, this is sending me bananas, but I need to find out why the bathroom is not working as it should do, having gone to so much effort and expense to build it (it was part of a new extension on our house). You guys have been so helpful, I am really grateful for all the advice you are giving me. So far we've had a grout 'expert' from Bal, the tiler who did the work and our builder round, but nobody seems to want to sort the issue, and I get the impression that they think in the end I will just give up and go away! From what you are all saying, this situation is obviously not 'normal' for wet rooms (I don't know as we've never had one before). It's spoiling the look of our lovely new bathroom and possibly storing up problems for the future, so I feel it needs resolving.

We'll not use the shower, as you suggest, and carry out tests, and then if it looks like a problem on the feed side, I'll get the plumber who put it in to have a look.

 

[Paula]

Do you know what type of pipework was used for the installation to the shower & heads, ie copper / soldered or plastic / pushfit? Is there any access behind the valve, like an airing cupboard - somewhere a hole could be cut in a stud wall to check for leaks? Can the cover plate for the shower be removed?
These are the sorts of things I'd be looking at first if I had been called out to investigate for a leak.
Looks like a nice job by the way 🙂

Thanks! I think the pipework up in the loft feeding the shower is plastic, but when it gets to the bathroom it's copper, and definitely copper at the valve. No, it's an outside wall, but the cover plate for the valve can be removed. We'll try to run the shower in to the bath, without going down the drain, and see if the water still appears, as has been suggested. Then if it does I'll get the plumber who fitted it back.

Thanks for your help!

 

[padtheplumber]

Also double check the Silicon sealant around the shower area, it can look fine, but I've seen it happen before when you get up close you can get a thumbnail under it where it hasn't quite taken to the tiles.

 

[Paula]

I've summarised this and hope I've got it right! haha

But please check this thread out at our plumbing forum.

Problematic thread on TilersForums might be a leak in shower - can you help us? - Plumbing Forum

Very impressed, well done! Would only pick you up on your spelling of "permanent" (!!!) and the fact that it was actually a couple of months, not weeks, earlier this year, that we didn't use the shower, and the grout in the former was still wet.

It was a great idea to post this on the plumbing forum, so thanks.

 

[Dan]

Very impressed, well done! Would only pick you up on your spelling of "permanent" (!!!) and the fact that it was actually a couple of months, not weeks, earlier this year, that we didn't use the shower, and the grout in the former was still wet.

It was a great idea to post this on the plumbing forum, so thanks.

Apologies. I did it during a few second gap I had between email batch sending earlier so didn't have time to click on Google Chrome to correct the spelling. I did click it though.

 

[Paula]

Also double check the Silicon sealant around the shower area, it can look fine, but I've seen it happen before when you get up close you can get a thumbnail under it where it hasn't quite taken to the tiles.

Ok, I will do that, but I have been down on my hands and knees quite a few times and it looks fine to me!

 

[Paula]

Apologies. I did it during a few second gap I had between email batch sending earlier so didn't have time to click on Google Chrome to correct the spelling. I did click it though.

Was only pulling your leg!

 

[Dan]

Problematic thread on TilersForums might be a leak in shower - can you help us? - Plumbing Forum

Another one thinks it's a leak to the shower head.

 

[Dan]

Was only pulling your leg!

Corrected my spelling and had the mrs spank me for it. Thinking of spilling some moer things wrung. Felt gud.

 

[Paula]

Just thought I'd let you know that we let the floor dry out between Wednesday morning and Sunday afternoon. For the first couple of days, water could still be seen to be seeping up through the grout on the 'dry' side of the shower screen, but by Sunday, it was much drier (although still dark in comparison with the rest of the floor grout). We then covered up the floor in the shower area and ran about 10 buckets of water from the main shower head, disposing of them in the bath rather than the shower drain. We even left the bucket under the head overnight to catch any drips, so the shower floor was completely dry. To begin with, there was no obvious seepage of water, but this morning, water could again be seen seeping up through the grout on the 'dry' side of the screen!

So....it looks like we may have a leak on the supply side, either in the fixed shower head, or the pipework running to the valve, or even the valve itself. As has been suggested, water is perhaps running down behind the tiles and under the shower floor, and then out beyond the screen. I would suggest that this would explain why we have seen so much more seepage beyond the screen since the grout in the tray area was replaced with epoxy: now that water can't evaporate up through the tray grout, it is having to travel further, ie. beyond the screen, where there is ordinary grout.

I have passed on this knowledge to the builder, and hopefully he will send his plumber out to check. I don't think there is any point in checking the drain now for leakage, do you?

Thanks, everyone, for your advice. I never thought that it could possibly be a problem with the pipework, so if this proves to be the case, you are geniuses!!

I'll let you know how we get on.

PS Can't help being worried if we do have seepage behind the tiles, as I know that we don't have waterproof backer board behind the tiles, and the floor tanking only comes up a few inches from the floor.....

 

[The D]

Just thought I'd let you know that we let the floor dry out between Wednesday morning and Sunday afternoon. For the first couple of days, water could still be seen to be seeping up through the grout on the 'dry' side of the shower screen, but by Sunday, it was much drier (although still dark in comparison with the rest of the floor grout). We then covered up the floor in the shower area and ran about 10 buckets of water from the main shower head, disposing of them in the bath rather than the shower drain. We even left the bucket under the head overnight to catch any drips, so the shower floor was completely dry. To begin with, there was no obvious seepage of water, but this morning, water could again be seen seeping up through the grout on the 'dry' side of the screen!

So....it looks like we may have a leak on the supply side, either in the fixed shower head, or the pipework running to the valve, or even the valve itself. As has been suggested, water is perhaps running down behind the tiles and under the shower floor, and then out beyond the screen. I would suggest that this would explain why we have seen so much more seepage beyond the screen since the grout in the tray area was replaced with epoxy: now that water can't evaporate up through the tray grout, it is having to travel further, ie. beyond the screen, where there is ordinary grout.

I have passed on this knowledge to the builder, and hopefully he will send his plumber out to check. I don't think there is any point in checking the drain now for leakage, do you?

Thanks, everyone, for your advice. I never thought that it could possibly be a problem with the pipework, so if this proves to be the case, you are geniuses!!

I'll let you know how we get on.

PS Can't help being worried if we do have seepage behind the tiles, as I know that we don't have waterproof backer board behind the tiles, and the floor tanking only comes up a few inches from the floor.....

so are you saying the walls in the wet area are only tanked a few inches up from the floor or is that just outside the wet area

 

[John Benton]

Thats what I was thinking Deano cos if there's a leak from the valve surely it would have been behind the tanking and it would almost certainly be seen as a wet patch on the ceiling below

 

[Paula]

so are you saying the walls in the wet area are only tanked a few inches up from the floor or is that just outside the wet area

Yes, that's right. Impey Waterguard all over the floor and a few inches up, then nothing apart from plasterboard and large format (300x600) porcelain tiles (I did question this at the time, as the spec for the job mentioned tile backer board in the shower area, but the builder said that it was not necessary....of course at that point I had not read your forum!). Anyway, there is no leak on the ceiling down below: I have been constantly checking! So do you think that it can't possibly be a leak from the valve or shower head, then?

 

[Bathfix Bob]

Can we have a pic of the shower? Is it built in with a removable chrome plate?

 

[The D]

WOW builders I've s---em

 

[John Benton]

We had one a few months ago where water was leaking downstairs only when the shower was turned on, on a concealed valve. Plumber checked it out and it was a crack in one of the brass fittings on the valve. When he undid the fitting it completely broke in two. Have you had the valve checked by the plumber yet?

 

[Paula]

We had one a few months ago where water was leaking downstairs only when the shower was turned on, on a concealed valve. Plumber checked it out and it was a crack in one of the brass fittings on the valve. When he undid the fitting it completely broke in two. Have you had the valve checked by the plumber yet?

No, John, I have asked the builder to send the plumber who installed the bathroom round, but he has not agreed yet. I've told him all about what I've been doing but he hasn't yet agreed. It would certainly help us solve the problem if it was something as simple as that!

 

[The D]

Hey guys , this is my first post here , I'm not a tiler but Infact a plumber, Dan kindly popped this post over onto the plumber forum for us to have a look through,
When I first startling reading the thread I thought it might've been a bad bit of grout not in being laid bad but a slight imperfection in the batch , ( small part )
If it was the drain or the shower because the floor is probably well sealed then I'd've thought the shadows would've spread with usage, I have seen water travel great lengths through tiles b4 protruding up through the cracks but don't think it in this case ,
There must be couple badly sealed parts now that your seeing evidence from your screen side,

do you still think it is somthing to do with badly sealed tiling ??

 

[John Benton]

It needs to be checked out as soon as possible, but I would also be concerned about the lack of tanking on the walls

 

[Paula]

Can we have a pic of the shower? Is it built in with a removable chrome plate?

Yes, it's a concealed valve with a removable chrome plate, but it's a long way from the shower heads (there are two). Can you see it in the picture?

 

[John Benton]

Doesn't matter how far away the heads are from the valve, the pipework behind the wall goes from the valve to each shower head

 

[Paula]

It needs to be checked out as soon as possible, but I would also be concerned about the lack of tanking on the walls

Yes, I have been concerned about this for a while, but I'm not sure how we can put it on now! Obviously if it's causing the current problems, then I feel I can go back to the builder and ask for the shower to be re-done, but at the moment I don't feel I have any evidence for this!