Help! Tiled wetroom floor looks perfect but grout doesn't dry out!

[Paula]

 

[Paula]

The above photos are the lowest quality I can do on my camera, but hopefully useful? While on my hands and knees noticed that there is grout missing around the drain, but doesn't look like the black lines on the grout away from the drain is cracked, just very dark coloured. Do you think that water could be getting in through the drain holes and migrating up the slope of the tray to the joints next to the wall?

 

[Paula]

Whitebeam, thanks for that. It's an en-suite shower, so just my husband and I using it, and only since about last June, so not even a year. We noticed the black marks within weeks of using it.

So are you saying that however well the tiles are laid there will always be moisture under the tiles, and that these black marks are unavoidable then (if cementitious grout is used)? Or do you think ours is badly done?

 

[Dash J]

I use bal epoxy,and yes the swimming pools were a nightmare
Paid a good linear m2 rate for it tho
Epoxy has changed its not as bad as it once was
As I say i always use it on my wet floors
Prob a bit over spec but better to be safe eh

 

[Dash J]

Should be bone dry in my opinion
If not there will be problems,as you can see
Marc

 

[Paula]

That's interesting, DashJ. But I think Bal only do black or white in epoxy, don't they? Mapei do a wider range of colours. So you've never had trouble with epoxy cracking in upstairs wetroom floors (suspended timber?) ?

 

[Dash J]

Bal do grey Paula,I have never had a problem at all on upstairs wet floors
One of my neighbours got a wet room done same as you impey
He had water coming in from his ceiling
I had a look and the water was going in through the grout
This had caused the tiles to fail
I lifted the tiles,let it all dry out,fixed tiles 100% coverage,can't stress enough the importance of this!
Then grouted with bal grey epoxy
It's still perfect
Sod's law I will get a phone call from him tomorrow lol
The guys who told you epoxy wouldn't work are talking rubbish
And the tiler will most certainly tell you it won't work because he doesn't want to do it
If you can establish there is no underlying problem and you are still unhappy with the finish I would suggest re grouting with epoxy

Marc

 

[Paula]

Bal do grey Paula,I have never had a problem at all on upstairs wet floors
One of my neighbours got a wet room done same as you impey
He had water coming in from his ceiling
I had a look and the water was going in through the grout
This had caused the tiles to fail
I lifted the tiles,let it all dry out,fixed tiles 100% coverage,can't stress enough the importance of this!
Then grouted with bal grey epoxy
It's still perfect
Sod's law I will get a phone call from him tomorrow lol
The guys who told you epoxy wouldn't work are talking rubbish
And the tiler will most certainly tell you it won't work because he doesn't want to do it
If you can establish there is no underlying problem and you are still unhappy with the finish I would suggest re grouting with epoxy

Marc

Thanks for this, Marc

just out of interest, how did you ensure 100% coverage? My builder has told me that this is impossible, as there will always be lines of adhesive where a rake is used?

And why was water coming through the ceiling: surely the tanking should have stopped this?

 

[Paula]

I don't know how much use the shower has had or how many people have used it in a day but moisture will find it's way through the standard grout that's why it's tanked below the tiles.

Pulled out a few wet rooms and there's allways been moisture that has made it's way under the tiles, if theres cracking in the grout then it will accelerate the process.

Sorry, only just worked out how to do this quote business (!) but just to be clear, are you saying that it is inevitable that I will always have wet grout, even if the tiles are fully bedded down and grout not cracked? I need to know if I should be pushing to have the tiles re-laid….

Paula

 

[John Benton]

This was a badly tiled tray that was letting water through the joints, the tiles were a mixture of dot and dab and using a notched trowel. There were big voids around the drain that water was sitting in and the tiles eventually came loose. I suspect that the drain had been set too high and they had to build up adhesive to the correct height.

Only thing I could do was remove the tiles, fill the voids, and then use a notched trowel, back butter the tiles, fix and grout, and no more problems.

 

[Paula]

This was a badly tiled tray that was letting water through the joints, the tiles were a mixture of dot and dab and using a notched trowel. There were big voids around the drain that water was sitting in and the tiles eventually came loose. I suspect that the drain had been set too high and they had to build up adhesive to the correct height.
Thanks for that, John. I've been on my hands and knees and now in daylight I can see that there are extremely fine cracks along joints in the shower, mostly where the grout meets the tiles. They are very difficult to see, but definitely there, plus gaps around the grout round the drain. I suspect this is what is happening in my tray. One question, though: if we take up the tiles, will this damage the Impey tanking underneath?

All this has been very helpful, and certainly made me look a lot more closely at what is going on with the grout, so thanks everyone who has replied!

Paula
Only thing I could do was remove the tiles, fill the voids, and then use a notched trowel, back butter the tiles, fix and grout, and no more problems.

View attachment 60598
View attachment 60594View attachment 60595View attachment 60596View attachment 60597

Thanks for this, John!

Just a quick question, if we take up our tiles, as you did, then will this damage the membrane underneath?

Paula

 

[John Benton]

Thanks for this, John!

Just a quick question, if we take up our tiles, as you did, then will this damage the membrane underneath?

Paula

That's the $64,000 dollar question. You won't know until you start taking them up. If they are fixed correctly I would say yes it is likely to damage the membrane.

 

[Stef]

Recognise those mosaics JB,




3 trays I done past couple of weeks.

 

[John Benton]

Recognise those mosaics JB,
View attachment 60601
View attachment 60602
View attachment 60603

3 trays I done past couple of weeks.

Those were Caslgrande Padana Italian porcelain Stef. Nightmare to washdown the grout as the face was riven.

PS did customer supply RayBans for the last job :yikes:

 

[Stef]

Those were Caslgrande Padana Italian porcelain Stef. Nightmare to washdown the grout as the face was riven.

PS did customer supply RayBans for the last job :yikes:

Not the same but they are very similar.



This is supposed to be like a Rubiks Cube.

Enough of high jacking this thread.. [emoji6]

 

[trustiling]

Something looks wrong with the grout but it is not uncommon to get patchy looking grout especially grey even in dry areas when as mentions already too much water used to wash down or not letting the grout set long enough before washing.
Again as before, any grout will retain some moisture on a wet floor being used twice a day but it only takes the smallest on pinholes or one crack and water, and lots of it, will find a way through. As for complete and total 100% coverage no one can guarantee that as it does only take even a gap in the bed of a mm for water to travel through bit the grout is the first and best line of defence.
And for that reason all our wet floors whether on concrete or timber are grouted in epoxy by Mapei who have an excellent range of colours.
600 x 600mm tiles won't have that many joints so a regrout won't be that much of a job and it would be complete peace of mind and what I would push for.
Maybe meet halfway and offer to pay for the epoxy but the tiler will do the labour free of charge?

 

[Tile seller]

Your second detailed pic shows a typical crescent moon shape which can be formed when two different mixes are joined together, with the first having perhaps a little too much time to set. Also, the second mix can often be a different viscosity and therefore colour strength. The convex side of the shape will be the first mix.
Furthermore, as already mentioned, over working of sponging down and not allowing correct setting times before doing so can exacerbate the above ,(two different mixes situation). One mix could have been sponged down differently than the other.

I'd go to your nearest decent tile centre and ask to have a look at the kerapoxy colours. Some people think they look a little plastic'y however, I prefer the more vivid colours they give.
Beware as epoxy installation is very different from cement based grout and you need some one who knows what there doing or disaster can strike.

Else, perhaps you could just put up with the colour disparity :/

 

[shunt]

After 8 months you really shouldn't have water build up under the tiles especially if there is no sign of cracked grout.

Check to make sure the waste has been solvent welded together correctly to ensure no water is getting through the height adjustment rings. was the dark grout around the waste only? does it come back when you use it?
shaun.

 

[Dan]

Just bumping some of the older popular (sometimes not so popular) threads. Probably wont be current discussion these days but I just need to do it. So just ignore the thread if it's not current for you.

 

[Paula]

Hi everyone

Thanks again for all your wonderful replies. You convinced me that what we had wasn't normal and that I should push for a solution.

I asked the builder to come and have a look at the shower after two months (!) of not using it. He brought a moisture meter and discovered that the dark patches (there were still some) were, in fact, still wet. I also pointed out the very slight cracks in some of the grout. He agreed to consult with BAL again, and then decided to scrape out all the grout in the shower tray area and flood the joints with a liquid adhesive, so that it would flow into any gaps under the tiles.

After another 2 or 3 weeks he then got his tiler to grout with Mapei epoxy (medium grey). I must say this looks fabulous: not really any different in colour or appearance to the Bal cement grout when dry, and of course stays exactly the same colour when wet. I really wish we'd had this in the first place!

We have now been using the shower for a couple of weeks without any problems: no cracking, and still looks perfect. Only time will tell whether it can stand up to the rigours of movement on a suspended timber floor (although there is not a lot of movement currently), but hopefully given that it is fine so far, this bodes well...

Of course I will keep you posted if there is any change, but hopefully this thread will be of some use to others experiencing similar problems in the future. In my opinion it really makes sense to use a fully waterproof grout like epoxy in a tiled shower tray, but of course only after making sure that the tiles have been bedded down properly in the first place.

Thanks again,

Paula

 

[Dan]

That's brilliant news. 🙂

Result.

 

[Paula]

Just thought I'd update you with what has happened with our wetroom over the previous weeks. The epoxy grout in the wet area has stood up very well, with no obvious cracking, and always stays the same colour, whether wet or dry. We're very pleased with that. HOWEVER.....despite re-applying Silicon along the base of the glass shower screen separating the wet area from the rest of the bathroom floor (which still has cement grout) so that no water could creep under, we seem to have water seepage along the grout lines on the "dry" side of the screen, so that there are now unsightly wet patches and efflorescence (presumably where water underneath is evaporating from the surface of the grout) extending to about a metre and a half beyond the shower screen. We have recently been away for a couple of weeks and when we came back the dark patches were still there, but got worse when we started to use the shower again.

I mentioned that this was happening again to the builder and he says that water can't possibly be getting in through the shower tray with the epoxy joints, so didn't see what he could do.

As before, we think that the permanently dark grout patches and efflorescence look messy, and are worried about water collecting under the tiles.

Has anyone any thoughts on what could be happening??

Thanks,

Paula

 

[Dan]

Could it be from getting out of the shower wet to dry yourself? Or condensation perhaps.

I guess it doesn't matter too much what's causing it, the solution is going to be the same again I think. Regrout with epoxy?

 

[Paula]

Could it be from getting out of the shower wet to dry yourself? Or condensation perhaps.

I guess it doesn't matter too much what's causing it, the solution is going to be the same again I think. Regrout with epoxy?

Thanks, Dan, for your reply. No, where the worst patches are are well away from where we dry (in fact, they run from the glass screen to under the wall-hung basin, where nobody ever treads). And it's a big bathroom so we don't get condensation. The odd thing is that at the drying end, whereas the wet grout always used to dry out pre-epoxy, now where it gets wet it doesn't seem to dry as well, so looks permanently wet (even after 2 weeks of holiday!). The problem is definitely worse since we put epoxy in the tray: it's as if the water is escaping from the tray to an area where it can evaporate.

Surely if we epoxy the whole floor, it will just sit under the tiles? Do you think this is ok, or should we be worried about water escaping from the shower area under the tiles in the rest of the room? We really can't see how it can travel under the shower screen, but that's what it looks like!

 

[Dan]

Is there a chance there's a leak somewhere? Maybe?

 

[Old Mod]

Stab in the dark here, trouble is the two week drying period u've just had might scupper this theory a little 😀
I recently witnessed a wet room floor that indeed kinda looked like it was leaking from beneath the screen.
In actual fact what it was, was capillary action on the screen itself.
It was sucking water uphill from the drain and trickling around the contours of the screen, making the dry bath area wet.
Just a theory mind 😀
It could be completely bonkers too haha

 

[The D]

I have not read all the replies so sorry if im repeating whats been said. I have had two wet rooms with the same issue and both times it was a leak from the shower .The only way for the water to go as the walls and floor had been fully tanked was through the grout, so it was seeping through the grout from underneath the tile, not water getting in from on top.

 

[Paula]

I have not read all the replies so sorry if im repeating whats been said. I have had two wet rooms with the same issue and both times it was a leak from the shower .The only way for the water to go as the walls and floor had been fully tanked was through the grout, so it was seeping through the grout from underneath the tile, not water getting in from on top.

That's very interesting, deanotile! So where exactly was the water coming from in the shower? Do you mean from somewhere in the tray? And, more importantly, how did you fix it?

 

[Paula]

Stab in the dark here, trouble is the two week drying period u've just had might scupper this theory a little 😀
I recently witnessed a wet room floor that indeed kinda looked like it was leaking from beneath the screen.
In actual fact what it was, was capillary action on the screen itself.
It was sucking water uphill from the drain and trickling around the contours of the screen, making the dry bath area wet.
Just a theory mind 😀
It could be completely bonkers too haha

That's very interesting that you've had the same problem! But do you think I could be getting the same effect (ie capillary action drawing water from the drain to the shower screen) even though the grout lines from the drain are filled with epoxy (which is supposed to be impermeable to water)? Sorry if I'm being a bit dim here, but do you mean that there is water under the tiles around the drain, or just water lying on top around here?

So what, if any, was the solution in the end? I'd be very interested to hear!

 

[Dave]

Are you 100% sure water isn't getting under the screen ?

 

[Paula]

Are you 100% sure water isn't getting under the screen ?

Well, all I know is that the tiler scraped out all the grout on the wet side of the screen and replaced it with epoxy, which still looks intact, then we put a large amount of clear Silicon where the metal frame of the screen meets the tiles. So I would say it was almost impossible for water to get under the screen from on top of the tiles. Strangely, the grout does not get wet on the 'dry' side until a couple of inches away from the screen!