Jerboa Tiles - New Floor Hollow but no tiles cracked -

[jinx4645]

Hello and maybe someone will be able to help. We have just finished an extensive house refurbishment. The kitchen area circa 100 sq.m is tiled with 60x60 Jerboa ceramic tiles. Someone else posted historically about the colour changes to the tile picking up dirt etc. - we have the same problem (search Jerboa for other reference). Also we have a problem where the tile / flooring has failed. We have commissioned the tile association to report but they point the finger at everyone which isnt helping me resolve the issue as the client. When a few tiles have been lifted on all the tiles there is no adherence of the adhesive. The tile comes up and the adhesive is stuck cleanly to the screed but not the tile. All our key advisors suggest a failure of the tile but it seems there maybe something more fundamental going on. We have other areas to complete and are reluctant to start until we get a view on what procedure we should follow to correct the issues. The spec was as follows:

To clarify some of the key points about the construction:
• the screed was reinforced with polymer fibres
• there are movement joints around the perimeter of the area
• the screed was allowed to dry in accordance with (and longer) than
recommended by the specialist supplier and was heated and
cooled in accordance with the UFH specification
• tiles were solidly bedded (see above) but lack of adhesion was not
apparent at that time
• the tiles have darkened due to a chemical left bonded to the tile
surface once the polythene layer was removed attracting dirt of all
types and bonding the same with the tile requiring aggressive
cleaners to remove

It is clear that we have defective product on two levels - the discolouration and the method of fitting leading to the hollowness of the floor. Can anyone recommend some independent technical advisors who would be able to test all aspects of the floor, adhesive, and tile and also offer help on how we should go about resolving the problem so we can be satisfied with the product.........help!

 

[MARBLE_TONY]

What adhesive Brand was used? May be worth calling them out to see what they say?

Got any pictures we could have a snoop at? Would like to see this

 

[jinx4645]

The adhesive used to bed the porcelain floor tiles
was KWIK FLEX flexible rapid setting tile adhesive (photo 1), whilst the grout for the
3mm wide joints between the tiles was ARDEX-FLEX FS. The adhesive company point at the tile and possible movement of the screed.....everyone is pointing at each other.....will supply some photos....

 

[jinx4645]

See attached photos - no adhesive on tile at all....floor has adhesive stuck to it.

 

[Deleted member 9966]

did anybody clean dirt/dust from the back of each tile before it was bedded solidly into the adhesive?

 

[jinx4645]

Each tile came supplied boxed and ready to fit (according to the supplier). There is a dust residue left on each tile, apparently linked to the kiln process, which is quite usual - apparently. This was not cleaned on each tile and is still present on the lifted delaminated tiles and does appear on the dry adhesive still on the floor.

 

[Deleted member 9966]

My opinion is then that the dust on the back of each tile prevented it from adhering correctly to the adhesive. I'm not a professional tiler, but having tiled floors in my own house, I have always wiped down dusty tiles and left them to dry before fixing them because that is the advice I have received from the guys on here.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

GRR has a possible answer with the dust on the back of the tile scenario but from the sample shown it is evident that the back of the tile has had no back buttering of adhesive to provide 100% solid bed fixing. The adhesive looks to have been dry/skinned by the time fixing took place and no twisting of the tile in fixing procedure to bed the tile into the adhesive.
If you had a report from the TTA what was their verdict?

 

[jinx4645]

Thx Timeless John - The verdict of the tile association was mixed - pointing at the specification of the floor screed and expansion of it and the lack of buttering - that was not seen as necessary by the tiler. They did not put too much weight on the tile or the white powder.....screed and tiler therefore at fault. The discolouration of the tile post fitting seems to have been forgotten and no one has really come up with an adequate explanation for this other than the sticky film removed before fitting has left a residue.....I will post the report edited for people and places to avoid any conflict and you can pass your own comments. We are reluctant to take up the screed and maybe adding detrimat? to the spec might deal with all the fitting issues.......

We questioned the report of the tile association only to receive a defensive response......We are no closer to having the floor that we paid for only closer to going into the tile business to sell people a product suitable for the job and learning alot along the way......

 

[jinx4645]

I have attached an edited (for place and person) report from the Tile Association.....any more thoughts on which direction we should jump?

 

[Time's Ran Out]

It's a good read and IMHO as correct as it can be.
The screed and it's content will get a better opinion from Ajax (a member of the Forum) when he comes on line but I would not agree that as a tiler the back of the tiles did not need buttering.
The size of the floor would require movement joints that are not there and the fact that the Tiles - 600x600mm porcelain from China would leave me with the opinion that the polished surface has pin holes which have accepted/accentuated the colour discolouration. Did the surface of the porcelain receive any coats of sealant after grouting.
Other views to follow no doubt.

 

[MARBLE_TONY]

Think John is bang on the money there

 

[garybadger]

Think the TTA have got it pretty much spot on with their conclusion there.
For me, when using larger tiles and porcelain, I always make sure, we spread the floor, and back butter every tile.
Just because the adhesive is cement based, doesn't mean its 100% not to fail.
Also looks to me as though the trowel used, is the wrong size. I'd have went for a 10 or 12mm trowel.
Sure that one looks like a wall serator. Therefore you aren't going to be bedding the tile into much adhesive at all, especially just spreading the floor.

 

[jinx4645]

Keep the comments coming all valuable stuff......what recourse do people think we have if the supplier didnt inform us about possible colour deterioration and or offer any installation advice? two issues really 1. Method of installation many views on this but what about 2. The lack of information from supplier as to recommended installation technique....misselling and or misrepresentation...Italian Porcelain v's China?!

 

[Andy Allen]

who fixed the tiles... was it builder , tilers, were they recommended from where you purchased the tiles...

 

[jinx4645]

A qualified tiler fitted the tiles. HE also did 7 bathrooms very well for us. He came recommended and also he has over 20 years experience. He suggested that buttering in his opinion was not required. I have also taken other tiler references who concluded the same. Seems that the tiler is partly to blame as the tile / floor may have worked against him. The issue now is how to resolve a mess not of our making to ensure that as a consumer we get what we paid for.......

 

[DHTiling]

I agree with the TTA report, tiles should have been back skimmed for full contact...

Just a quick question, did you re-heat the floor as you did when first commissioning the screed, as heating the adhesive too quickly could shock the tiled installation.

You have to commission the adhesive bed as well..just a thought.

 

[jinx4645]

Yes we commissioned the floor post tiling very slowly.......but again had no guidance from anyone but we were sensible in our approach

 

[jinx4645]

We also have a control area where no UFH was applied and this has some 80% of tiles sounding hollow. Not sure it has anything to do with the UFH as the control area gives us the clear proof.......

 

[Time's Ran Out]

I'am not sure if you would have any recourse with the supplier as to any installation procedure and I'd assume a tiler with that amount of experience would know that tiles of that size should be fixed with a solid bed method.
Again I'd ask - were the surface of the tiles sealed before/during/after installation and were you aware that the tiles you purchased were from China.

 

[jinx4645]

No we thought they were from Italy! Also nothing was selaed before or after.......

 

[Time's Ran Out]

So the title is Jerboa tiles - I've not heard of them, but how do you know you bought the tiles you saw on display at £x for an Italian 600x600mm porcelain and were supplied Chinese 600x600mm porcelain at £y which could have been about one fifth of the price. There are threads on the forum with reference to large format porcelain from the large DIY sheds with 1000's of comments!
This reply is more about the surface discolouration problem and the fact that the Retail DIY outlets insist on instructing customers to seal their porcelain tiles.

 

[jinx4645]

All thanks for responding - as with all of these things therecould be a number of contributing factors and my research is inconclusive as is outlined in this thread. If anyone reads this who is a consumer. Be careful your investment in the floor is a major one - supply companies generally supply tiles but not installation information. Its like buying a car without a manual. Certainly the Jerboa tiles we purchased are sub-standard on one level (the discolouration) and the installation issues add further insult to injury. Please only post if you have any pearls of wisdom but at this stage we will take our gripe off line and see if we can reach some sort of agreement to resolve the nightmare.

 

[Spud]

when you lift the tiles is there any moisture on the backs of the tiles or are they dry? also do you know if the new screed was primed before tiling commenced the tiles ,you call jerboa are also called Molise and are distributed by several comanys they have holes on their surface and look like a travertine tile, the discoluration can be cleaned off with professional cleaning but it is difficult, the kwik flex is walls and floors own brand of adhesive it is manufactured by Palace chemiacls I believe,do you have the batch numbers for the bags used?

 

[Ajax123]

Each tile came supplied boxed and ready to fit (according to the supplier). There is a dust residue left on each tile, apparently linked to the kiln process, which is quite usual - apparently. This was not cleaned on each tile and is still present on the lifted delaminated tiles and does appear on the dry adhesive still on the floor.

Is this dust loose or stuck to the tile.

Could also be tat the adhesive has started to set or skin before the tiles were placed. Was the screed primed at all?

 

[Divad]

I have a pearl of wisdom. Speak to your home insurers about sticking in a claim. You can foward them the TTA report and everything else you have gathered. Let them pay for it to be replaced OR, if they believe the tiler was at fault, or the seller of the tielrs, or the pourer of the floor screed, then THEY can take it up with the insurers of those parties and you won't have to do all this running around and detective work.