Is this ok? Natural stone floor not level after tiling

[hmtiling]

What about products like Universeal rapid all in one? Ive had great results using it on damp stone. Ok it's solvent based and you really need a vapour mask using it, but it hands down beats any water based sealers I've used.

Never even heard of that one impish. Offers longer protection than dry treat too. You rate it then?

 

[One Day]

Products may have moved on in the 10 years since I was importing Stone.

That said, I find it difficult to grasp how you seal something that's wet. The fact it's wet means it won't absorb a great deal more fluid no matter if it's water or solvent based, that's a simple physics issue not a technical product issue.

I'm no chemist but a light solvent can displace larger water molecules can't it? If so, it'll drive water out and leave those c6 molecules sat nicely in the stone.

 

[One Day]

Never even heard of that one impish. Offers longer protection than dry treat too. You rate it then?

Honestly, yes. Superb product. Just make sure the vapour won't or can't be an issue. If it is an issue, stick with a water based sealer.

 

[widler]

I like solvent based sealers , takes me back to my teens

 

[J Sid]

For a number of years before I sold tooling I owned a stone import business. We predominantly imported marble and limestone from Portugal and Spain and without exception every crate or box of tiles we ever handled would have been packed at the production factory whilst it was still wet.

This is the main reason why it's not generally sensible to seal any of these products in any way before they are fitted and allowed to dry naturally. As in most cases you're trapping in production moisture on top of moisture being drawn in from whatever adhesive is being used.

Also consider that an already moist stone is not going to absorb any form of sealant to a degree that will allow it to perform to it's design standard.

Products may have moved on in the 10 years since I was importing Stone.

That said, I find it difficult to grasp how you seal something that's wet. The fact it's wet means it won't absorb a great deal more fluid no matter if it's water or solvent based, that's a simple physics issue not a technical product issue.

I'm not entirely convinced the problem here is with the tiler. I feel it's a colour expectiation from a natural product that hasn't been explained particularly well.

Another common problem is whoever did the tiling display in the Fired Earth Showroom may have done so with a particularly white or clean batch of Carrara mosaic that maybe isn't representative of what is supplied.

I have 30mm Carrara Marble worktops in my kitchen, I had to search high and low to find a nice white slab that I was happy with. Much of the Carrara now being imported into the UK is a dirty grey with the odd splash of white, rather than a crisp white with a splash of grey.

at last some sense being spoken

 

[J Sid]

What about products like Universeal rapid all in one? Ive had great results using it on damp stone. Ok it's solvent based and you really need a vapour mask using it, but it hands down beats any water based sealers I've used.

they make some big claims impish, to good to be true! Definitely hard to believe

 

[Lithofin BOB]

The test was to determine the colour change without any moisture from the install bring present, I would advise this test on an unlaid tile prior to impregnating the main area on any floor, most products will state to test for suitabilty and to access colour change.
Next test could be to strip out the impregnator on these spare tiles,dry and test a water based as these quite often will not change or highlight the colour( test)

 

[hmtiling]

These are fired earth ' Hampton' sealed with stain stop and grouted with 110 ucp. I had the luxury of long drying times as they're was 5 more wet rooms to di in the house. They definitely went slightly darker and richer in colour but the client and myself thought they looked good. I've no before sealant photos though I'm afraid

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Just to be clear - and everyone can have their own procedure - all stone is different .

Now having fixed a few stone floors over the years I'd put my 6d worth in.
White Limestone, Terracotta and Encaustics I always seal as I take them out of the crate. Honed stones I work clean ( not as clean as my son apparently) and seal when fully dry 48 hours later.
This particular marble I would have worked clean but sealed before grouting.
Not that anyone listens to old people these days.

And seal when fully dry!

For a number of years before I sold tooling I owned a stone import business. We predominantly imported marble and limestone from Portugal and Spain and without exception every crate or box of tiles we ever handled would have been packed at the production factory whilst it was still wet.

This is the main reason why it's not generally sensible to seal any of these products in any way before they are fitted and allowed to dry naturally. As in most cases you're trapping in production moisture on top of moisture being drawn in from whatever adhesive is being used.

Also consider that an already moist stone is not going to absorb any form of sealant to a degree that will allow it to perform to it's design standard.

Imho - if you know your stone you will not have the issues!

 

[WaltWhite]

So to recap, my 7 months pregnant wife ordered the tiles over the phone from Fired Earth. She wasn't given any guidance at all about the nature of the stone we were using. Of course the email confirming the order did say "check the terms and conditions". The website showing the bridghampton tiles says in a small box "Extreme Variation" : I would have no idea this meant more variation than you would normally expect with a natural stone, being our first time ever buying these sort of tiles.
Fired Earth are have told me they would not normally give guidance to customers other than this as they have been told this is rude by previous customers in the past. There is also guidance on the invoice but in very small writing which we were not directed to, again we are novices at this but would have appreciated a little bit more help here. They also say because we ordered samples from the website they would have assumed we did not need any guidance when actually ordering. Hmmmm.

Our tiler did not indicate any problems with working with these tiles, he says he opened 4 of the six boxes and mixed them up. He also refuses to believe this is a moisture issue, and says it is colour variation as some other tilers I have asked believe. As when he finished he did not clean the tiles, I'm wondering if excess sealant was left on the tiles, which could have darkened them. But it does appear to be in places whole sheets that are darker.

If particular sheets of the tiles were darker the tiler did not ask us if we were Ok to use these. He said he thought that was the mix.

I'm really annoyed with the attitude of Fired Earth, I have asked if someone could come and look at the floor and they have refused. We had the tiles unopened for quite a while, we were delayed with our renovation and had the small matter of my wife being knocked down to contend with so this delayed our project. I feel let down by the installation and frankly the attitude of this company (Topps Tiles better customer service in my opinion)

I still owe the tiler a third of the money. He feels he is being criticised because of Fired Earth's lack of help with this, and that he should be paid all of his money. I asked him to come back and improve the floor. He has offered to cut out the darker sheets and put the unused sheets in but offers no guarantees it would be better (thinking he would use a disk cutter, difficult to do neatly?). Im not sure exactly how he can do this with hexagon tiles and it look ok?

Regarding the earlier photos of the "Hamptons " floor ( that looks brilliant btw) this is also classed as Extreme Variation but looks very similar to fired earth photos and their samples. As opposed to what we have.

Our baby is due this week so could do without this hassle!
Sorry for long message but that is the current state of play.....

 

[WaltWhite]

BTW some people are saying the floor looks OK, I dont know.....

 

[WaltWhite]

Found these photos a couple of hours after they had been sealed. Floor is not clean mayb the application of the stainstop is the problem

 

[RealEarth]

that mosaic looks absolutely nothing like they advertise on their website. Yes.. there is scope for 'natural variation' in stone - but that's ridiculous.
Have we established that the tiler hasn't used a grey adhesive? (sorry.. i've not read every post on this thread) - that would be a major contributing factor to the greyness in the tiles.

This is Hampton Marble hexagon mosaic I supplied recently.. together with matching brick on the walls. This was from Silver Lion Trading (not Fired Earth) - but essentially the same product. Never had any issues with them ever.



It's saddening to hear of the end users being brushed off with small print, hoping that they'll go away and stop bothering them - but sometimes problems need to be addressed and put to bed in a professional manner that you would expect from a high end brand such as theirs. It would be worth going straight to the top with your complaint and asking the question as to what they would consider acceptable to their samples / website image and what you have received. I would be interested to hear their response.
Good luck.

 

[WaltWhite]

I know it's not quite the same (bridgehampton rather than easthampton) but that is also extreme variation and at least there's some similarity to website / samples. The tiler says he didn't use grey adhesive. I'm wondering if it's the sealant? But anyway fired Earth are now not returning my calls. Don't really now where to go from here

 

[Concrete guy]

Your issue here is with the supplier of the marble, not the installer. I would be taking this up with Fired Earth.

This is the very reason we used to encourage customers to come and view/pick the product they were having fitted. Natural stone has variations, it's natural after all. It's up to the supplier to provide enough opportunity for the end user to see what they are buying and make sure they are happy with the product.

 

[WaltWhite]

I feel like both may be at fault. The earlier posts here suggest moisture may be an issue with the installation. The floor was not cleaned and may have been sealed with dirt on the marble. There is adhesive on part of the floor. I have been informed that leaving an excess of sealant on the marble can darken it. I don't think the marble was buffed dry after allowing the sealant to impregnate the required period of time. The tiles were only given two days to dry out

Regarding Fired Earth they have not given us any advice with this product and are currently washing their hands of us now they have our money. They now will not return my calls. I don't know if their tiles were the problem but the floor looks quite a bit different to what we expected

So a bit fed up with this now to be honest, I don't blame the installer entirely but we haven't ended up with what we expected. Surely if the sheets are looking very different to some of the other sheets and the customer was around all day, all be it in a different room someone might ask them if they were happy?

 

[One Day]

I like solvent based sealers , takes me back to my teens

Try Universeal rapid all-in-one. Too much of that and it'll send you to sleep - permanently!

 

[hmtiling]

I feel like both may be at fault. The earlier posts here suggest moisture may be an issue with the installation. The floor was not cleaned and may have been sealed with dirt on the marble. There is adhesive on part of the floor. I have been informed that leaving an excess of sealant on the marble can darken it. I don't think the marble was buffed dry after allowing the sealant to impregnate the required period of time. The tiles were only given two days to dry out

Regarding Fired Earth they have not given us any advice with this product and are currently washing their hands of us now they have our money. They now will not return my calls. I don't know if their tiles were the problem but the floor looks quite a bit different to what we expected

So a bit fed up with this now to be honest, I don't blame the installer entirely but we haven't ended up with what we expected. Surely if the sheets are looking very different to some of the other sheets and the customer was around all day, all be it in a different room someone might ask them if they were happy?

I think you should have gone through the sheets yourself. You havea genuine gripe with fired earth but should pay the tiler in full Imo. It would be easier to take your frustration out on the tiler by not paying him but he has fixed what you had be supplied and I'm not convinced he's done anything wrong having seen this sort of stone darken when sealed by the book.

 

[Terry the tiler]

I'm in the tilers corner on this 1

 

[Italy]

the culprit, the culprit is just the tiler. and that's that.
such as tiling, it is clearly written on the packages.
the manufacturer, does not respond to the materials laid. stop.
all the rest are just talk. needless to turn around the problem.
tiler, when he saw the problem, he had to stop immediately. (Because these stains could be seen. Also before laying).

 

[WaltWhite]

Im not and wouldn't take out my frustration on the tiler by not paying him. My family all work in the building trade and my dad has been on the receiving end for someone not paying in the past. There has been a lot of guidance on here that this is an installation issue, not universally, but still enough.
I am unhappy with Fired Earth's attitude though but have not had any joy with them, either in their tech dept or customer services. Even so if it was down to them I would not punish the tiler. I haven't actually said that I won't be paying him in full. Just as an aside, surely though you clean the floor properly when the job is done, so it looks the best? Especially if you have 25 years experience in the trade?

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Fired Earth have provided all the required information a customer needs and have been supplying materials long enough to know the issues that arise. Once the tiles are fixed it's NOT their problem .
As I said in an earlier post the tiler has to know his stone.
Who did seal the floor?

 

[Lithofin BOB]

On your test sheets the tiles darkened to virtually the same darkness as the tiles laid , this could remove possible issues related with moisture . ( is this right?)
As with any / most impregnators , it will state to test for colour change and suitabilty .
I suggested , if you were to strip out one or two of the test tiles, or even a section of the floor ( several weeks ago) that this may lighten back the tiles , after the drying period, the test tiles could be test impregnated with a water based impregnator as these do not generally alter the colour of the tiles at all, it would require this test as they could go the same or just slightly lighter.

 

[Concrete guy]

View attachment 85532 View attachment 85533 View attachment 85534 Ok here are some photos, where as suggested by @Lithofin BOB i have used the StainStop on 2 or 3 unlaid sheets. Just half of each sheet and as per @Lithofin BOB 's exact instructions. Although there are some shadows I hope u can see the sheets laid over the tiles floor. Do u think the colouring matches the floor? If so the sealant has darkened the tiles, we were specifically sold this from
Fired Earth

I'm looking at this image again.

The loose test sheets look pretty much as dark as the fitted product.

What exactly is the problem? Are you unhappy with the colour of the stone full stop? Are you unhappy that the already dark grey Carrara has been darkened a further shade or two after sealing (which isn't unusual)? Or is it something else altogether?

Were you actually expecting a white marble mosaic similar to the other pictures posted of other jobs in this thread?

 

[WaltWhite]

Here is a photo I know it's slightly shadowed but u can see the sheets next to a dark patch on the floor. The left hand side of the two overlaid sheets were sealed by me as per bobs instructions. The floor was sealed by the tiler you can see from my last couple of photos taken a couple if hours after they were sealed. The floor is dirty so I cant see how he buffed them dry to ensure any excess sealant either. I didn't want to do anything with the floor myself in case the tiler then refused to improve the work. I only realised I had those pics recently.

Been v busy with the wife being up the duff and the tiler was on holiday too. I had been told by fired Earth teh support that over a few months the tiles would lighten if I didn't get the sealed removed. I think the sealer hasn't now darkened those tiles much

 

[WaltWhite]

These are the test sheets that I uploaded pics of previously

 

[Concrete guy]

So fundamentally you are unhappy with the colour of the marble supplied?

 

[One Day]

When I deal with any natural stone mosaic - especially FE and Porcelanosa, I photograph the batch numbers and dry-lay the sheets so the customer can see the spread of various tone.
Happy? - another photograph. Then they get fixed the way the customeris happy with.

I got stung years ago with some mixed marble mosaic from Porcelanosa - I did exactly as above, yet when I grouted the floor, just one sheet stood out like a sore thumb. 8 week lead time for more and Porcelanosa claimed it's perfectly normal - a natural product!!! Morons!

It was a rogue sheet crept in the batch.

I managed to sort it by using an aqua-mix sealer which progressively darkened the other stone until it was all blended... and received major brownie points from Porcelanosa!

 

[One Day]

Looks like different batch of marble absorbing sealer differently to me....

 

[WaltWhite]

I think the colour on these sheets and the other unlaid sheets is pretty much what I thought we would get in the floor. Expected some variation due to being marble. However the darker patches on the floor are v different to those unlaid sheets. Tiler says that was what he got when he opened the boxes. Fired earth saying installation or sheets should have been put aside if not acceptable and would have been replaced. The other Hampton pics are also classed as "extreme variation" by fired earth but are not too different to what is advertised by fired earth on website and in showroom. And here some posters suggesting it's installation. Basically I don't know whose right! But I will say @Lithofin BOB has been v helpful on phone!

 

[WaltWhite]

I do feel tiler could have had a word if sheets not right. My wife was in all day, she employed him.