Is this ok? Natural stone floor not level after tiling

[Lithofin BOB]

Welcome to the forum , firstly
We ( lithofin) and standards ( standards state with caution)would not advise Natural stone to be
Impregnated prior to laying as this can trap moisture ,leading to discoloration ,mineral salts trapped ,oxide issues, water staining ,refere to the photos above
I get 5-10 of these a week.
No sealer or impregnator on the market is resistant to acidic damage and will break down with the use of these types of product.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Now having fixed a few stone floors over the years I'd put my 6d worth in.
White Limestone, Terracotta and Encaustics I always seal as I take them out of the crate. Honed stones I work clean ( not as clean as my son apparently) and seal when fully dry 48 hours later.
This particular marble I would have worked clean but sealed before grouting.
Not that anyone listens to old people these days.

 

[Lithofin BOB]

I think your right John , if you are familiar with the stones and techniques fine. but, people are getting bitten with so many variants of natural stones these days , example, slate , residues of grout , 25 years ago ,we would just wash over with a diluted hydr ( brick acid) In my book now I have 18 different slates/ mud stones that can react differently , you can't use acids on them they bloom with oxide with hydocloric ,some react with alkalines , some will highlight ,go white with solvent based sealers ,so water based required,
If you pre seal, some some will produce mineral traces and you can't get the out. floors are being taken up.
I can be a bit negative, all I deal with is problem floors or were sent in to sort them out.Wednesday I had 550 Sqm pre sealed piatra cerana sandstone, all discoloured and is coming out, gutted it was beautifully laid .Information is key, possibly from the supplier, and the knowledge we gain .

 

[andy8758]

I always refer directly to the supplier when fitting natural stone. I treat the stone according to their instructions. However, some suppliers give duff information. e.g. a well known national stone supplier telling a customer to use floor polish on the slate in their bathroom. So I treat the advice with some caution, but generally if they recommend a particular sealer I use it.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

I always refer directly to the supplier when fitting natural stone. I treat the stone according to their instructions. However, some suppliers give duff information. e.g. a well known national stone supplier telling a customer to use floor polish on the slate in their bathroom. So I treat the advice with some caution, but generally if they recommend a particular sealer I use it.

But look at all the issues that occur from suppliers recommendations.
Terracotta has all but disappeared, Black limestone being used in locations unsuitable and builders thinking that this job is easy!

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Now having fixed a few stone floors over the years I'd put my 6d worth in.
White Limestone, Terracotta and Encaustics I always seal as I take them out of the crate. Honed stones I work clean ( not as clean as my son apparently) and seal when fully dry 48 hours later.
This particular marble I would have worked clean but sealed before grouting.
Not that anyone listens to old people these days.

Same as John,

I'll only seal encaustic tiles and terracotta before fixing, anything else I work clean and leave to dry before sealing then I'll polish up and completely seal before grouting then grouting will be my final job after sealant is completely cured that is........

This job looks awful to be honest, the marble looks stained and dirty so I'm guessing moisture, grout and dust has been sealed in......I would condemn that work , very poor and certainly not a professional finish

 

[AD Ceramics]

Welcome to the forum , firstly
We ( lithofin) and standards ( standards state with caution)would not advise Natural stone to be
Impregnated prior to laying as this can trap moisture ,leading to discoloration ,mineral salts trapped ,oxide issues, water staining ,refere to the photos above
I get 5-10 of these a week.
No sealer or impregnator on the market is resistant to acidic damage and will break down with the use of these types of product.

Ha ha.....could you imagine trying to seal stone prior to installation under normal site conditions with joiners, sparks, plumbers amongst other muppets crawling all over them.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

But that's why you have to seal it before laying! All the muppets crawling over them.

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Ha ha.....could you imagine trying to seal stone prior to installation under normal site conditions with joiners, sparks, plumbers amongst other muppets crawling all over them.

If I'm doing a stone floor then I'll put it across to client / builder before I start that no access
Will be granted from when I start until I finish, if that can't be agreed then I walk away

 

[AD Ceramics]

But that's why you have to seal it before laying! All the muppets crawling over them.

I was kind of referring to the fact that there isn't the room to start sealing tiles having them standing against walls etc whilst they dried, should have made my post a little clearer.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

No I understood the logistics of your post but don't see that as a valid reason to not prepare the material properly.

 

[AD Ceramics]

No I understood the logistics of your post but don't see that as a valid reason to not prepare the material properly.

Sorry but I'm in @Lithofin BOB corner when it comes to sealing before installation and just working clean, except when it comes to as you say terracotta and encaustic.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

so you don't seal stone before fixing?

 

[J Sid]

never had a stone job I needed or wanted to seal before fixing, Encaustic, as John said, always and Terracotta, well have only done one in the 25 years, many before that when all the fashion and did it as I used to, lay clean and sealed with linseed oil 3 time different dilution's each time.
I'm with Bob on this one, lay stone unsealed and clean and leave to dry completely before sealing.

 

[Andy Allen]

B & POO used to do a polished porcelain that had to be sealed before it was laid....awful tile that was very porous.

 

[WaltWhite]

Hi all

Meeting the tiler about the marble tiles floor tonight. I notice the grouting was commented on in earlier posts about being poor. Could you explain what looks wrong with it and how it should be remedied?

Also the tiler laid ceramic tiles on top of our other bathroom floor, I think it looks ok? But I've uploaded some pics here in case I've missed something again

Thanks for all your input so far been really useful

 

[MTiler]

never had a stone job I needed or wanted to seal before fixing, Encaustic, as John said, always and Terracotta, well have only done one in the 25 years, many before that when all the fashion and did it as I used to, lay clean and sealed with linseed oil 3 time different dilution's each time.
I'm with Bob on this one, lay stone unsealed and clean and leave to dry completely before sealing.

I did a job with Bert & May encaustics and their instructions were to leave them for a few days after fixing to let them completely dry out and then seal them before grouting.

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

I did a job with Bert & May encaustics and their instructions were to leave them for a few days after fixing to let them completely dry out and then seal them before grouting.

I leave encaustics for a minimum of 7 days before sealing so moisture has evaporated

 

[WaltWhite]

Hi all

Just regarding my original post which started this thread from my first photos the grouting has been highlighted as poor. Could someone explain what's wrong with it and how to sort it ? I'm not a tiler myself but meeting the tiler this eve want to be able to discuss clearly with him if poss. Thanks again for everyone's input

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Hi all

Just regarding my original post which started this thread from my first photos the grouting has been highlighted as poor. Could someone explain what's wrong with it and how to sort it ? I'm not a tiler myself but meeting the tiler this eve want to be able to discuss clearly with him if poss. Thanks again for everyone's input

Hi Walt,

Well firstly it's filthy in places and looks as tho the dirt has been sealed in and the grout film on the surface of the stone has also been sealed in......the grout also looks patchy so the tiler probably didn't mix the powder & water to the correct ratio, consistency or it's been washed too much ( so if he has washed it off with clean water but then washed off again after the grout has started to cure it will dry patchy.....( that's a big problem I'm afraid ).....

 

[JMC tiling]

View attachment 84788 View attachment 84789 View attachment 84790 View attachment 84791 View attachment 84792 View attachment 84793 View attachment 84794 Hi all

Meeting the tiler about the marble tiles floor tonight. I notice the grouting was commented on in earlier posts about being poor. Could you explain what looks wrong with it and how it should be remedied?

Also the tiler laid ceramic tiles on top of our other bathroom floor, I think it looks ok? But I've uploaded some pics here in case I've missed something again

Thanks for all your input so far been really useful

Ok, IMHO its a lazy setout so he has started with a full tile on an out of square wall by the looks of the picture which means that's the joint is getting bigger as it goes along but only a minor point. A better setout would have also avoided the slither cuts he has had to do near the radiator, and the tile he has cut in half to get around the pipe feeding the towel rail looks woeful. But if you are happy with it that's all what matters really.

 

[Spud]

encaustics wont hold moisture for 7 days there are drier than jacobs crackers and soak up water quicker than blotting paper, I always get a couple of coats of sealing on prior to laying , I have seen so many disasters where tilers havent presealed and ended up cleaning up floors for clients due to poor installation practices , the only way to lay encaustics un sealed is to leave them in a barrel of water over night , they then need to be drained before fixing with rapid set , they wont get contaminated and can be cleaned while fitting but there is a much higher risk of efflouresence fixing them that way

 

[Lithofin BOB]

These tiles certainly can be problematic, main issue I get is with pre sealed or washed over prior to the seal, look dry . They can ghost, whiten give a dusty appearance,patchiness .some will say that this is the look , but they can be installed with crisp / rich colours.
With one of our large suppliers, we cut down replacement by 60% by drying/releasing moisture prior to sealing, there is such a vast range of these tiles on the market with differing density and porosity ,this can offer many options of fixing ,if tested. Floors installed with a crystallising addy would be ideal perhaps ,but double the price perhaps ,Self levalers, screeds not fully dry can all add to the moisture level needing to release through these tiles, if there is an impregnator to barrier this , it can cause issues If you produce a salt within the body of the tile ,this will not be removed easily ,if at all
Gary, would you use a water based over a solvent? These are not so prone to the whitening, discolouration ,they just don't work as well,with moisture present.

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

I fix encaustics following fired earths fixing methods and I havnt had any problems to date.......they don't specify sealing before fixing, just to work clean as you go then once fixing is completed clean the floor, then 7 days drying, then first coat of Lithofin mn stain stop, once that is fully cured then grout, leave to dry then seal again until desired finish is achieved......I'm sure lots of tilers work differently but following this practice I've so far been okay with encaustics and quite enjoy fixing them now

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Oh forgot to mention depending on porosity of the tile you may need 2 coats of mn stain stop before grouting, think I did that on the last one

 

[Flintstone]

I've only done encaustics once and over electric ufh. I just wet the tiles with a sponge and back buttered and tiled as normal as clean as poss then sealed after they were down. They do mark exceptionally easily tho. Sealed them about 3 times

 

[WaltWhite]

So the tiler doesn't think it's moisture he thinks it's two different batches of tiles. Spoke to the fired earth shop , after speaking to the technical dept earlier in the week from the photos they think it's colour variation that you get from marble tiles, but that all the boxes should have been opened up and mixed up. Therefore preventing dark areas and light areas if that makes sense? Anyway I've asked them to check was there any problems with the batch we bought and asked if a fired earth rep can come out and look at the tiles. Will see what they come up with....

 

[WaltWhite]

Ok here are some photos, where as suggested by @Lithofin BOB i have used the StainStop on 2 or 3 unlaid sheets. Just half of each sheet and as per @Lithofin BOB 's exact instructions. Although there are some shadows I hope u can see the sheets laid over the tiles floor. Do u think the colouring matches the floor? If so the sealant has darkened the tiles, we were specifically sold this from
Fired Earth

 

[Concrete guy]

I'm not entirely convinced the problem here is with the tiler. I feel it's a colour expectiation from a natural product that hasn't been explained particularly well.

Another common problem is whoever did the tiling display in the Fired Earth Showroom may have done so with a particularly white or clean batch of Carrara mosaic that maybe isn't representative of what is supplied.

I have 30mm Carrara Marble worktops in my kitchen, I had to search high and low to find a nice white slab that I was happy with. Much of the Carrara now being imported into the UK is a dirty grey with the odd splash of white, rather than a crisp white with a splash of grey.

 

[Concrete guy]

so you don't seal stone before fixing?

For a number of years before I sold tooling I owned a stone import business. We predominantly imported marble and limestone from Portugal and Spain and without exception every crate or box of tiles we ever handled would have been packed at the production factory whilst it was still wet.

This is the main reason why it's not generally sensible to seal any of these products in any way before they are fitted and allowed to dry naturally. As in most cases you're trapping in production moisture on top of moisture being drawn in from whatever adhesive is being used.

Also consider that an already moist stone is not going to absorb any form of sealant to a degree that will allow it to perform to it's design standard.