Important Changes to Tiling Standards

[J Sid]

The British Standard documents should be freely available as much for the customer as the tradesman.

If the customer was able to view it they would know exactly what service, substrate prep, fix method and material use to expect for there chosen tradesmen.

If it was freely available to all tradesmen surely the level of workmanship would improve. All tradesmen would be pricing to do the job the same with regards to prep, materials, method.
Or am I missing something?

Is there a British Standard 'kite mark' a small trader can get to say that they are certified to work to and follow all the BS for there trade?
I know the TTA try to give customers peace of mind by saying there members work to a certain standard. But there are so many trade bodies out there the customers don't know the good from the bad. But all know and respect the BS kite mark.

So, I believe the British Standard should be free to view to all and a kite mark should be available to those tradesmen whose have passed an exam and are periodically inspected to say that there work conforms to said standard.

My god, I have sort out our industry.

 

[Dan]

My god, I have sort out our industry.

Get on it man!

 

[White Room]

I wish my missus still worked at BSI, I'd make a fortune...

 

[Marvo]

Are the tiling regulations, of which I now see there are many, actually enforced by anyone?

 

[Dave]

Are the tiling regulations, of which I now see there are many, actually enforced by anyone?

Nope!!!

 

[Dan]

Here we go. A couple are in here: http://www.tilersforums.com/resources/

Don't worry, the link to the main store, I'm not selling them. 🙂

 

[Marvo]

I just had a read through some of the other standards (other than the BS5385-1 to 5) and there's quite a few that would be relevant to tilers such as;

BS 8000-11.1, Workmanship on building sites – Code of practice for
wall and floor tiling – Ceramic tiles, terrazzo tiles and mosaics
BS 8000-11.2, Workmanship on building sites – Code of practice for
wall and floor tiling – natural stone tiles
BS EN 12002:2002, Adhesives for tiles – Determination of transverse deformation for cementitious adhesives and grouts
BS EN 12004:2007, Adhesives for tiles – Requirements, evaluation of conformity, classification and designation
BS EN 13888:2002, Grouts for tiles – Definitions and specifications
BS EN 14411, Ceramic tiles – Definitions, classification, characteristics
and marking

These also excluce the standards for plastering, rendering, installing gypsum board etc etc.

Hmmm, setting up as a tiler just turned into an expensive exercise. Just out of interest how many tilers actually own a copy of the relevant standards?

 

[White Room]

Thats a good question, probably a lot less than own one.

 

[Dan]

Isn't that what he said mark? Lol

I'll start a poll now.

 

[Marvo]

I'm guessing you'd need to spend a thousand or two of your UK quids to set yourself up the regs that are just directly related to actual day to day tile laying and maybe as much again for other regs that would be considered relevant such as the building regs, the regs relating to safety and the different regs regarding cementicious products to name a few. Then on top of that there's be costs of regular revisions, updates etc.

What would be the motivation for spending such a large amount of money? Would there ever be a case where you'd have to show you own all the regs to prove competance?

The question stems from the electricians forum that I work on where the UK electrical scheme (NIC, NAPIT etc) insists on a yearly check during which you need to produce your own copy of the current regs as well as other things such as calibration certificates for testers and insurance policy proof etc. I wondered if it's similar for tilers.

**Edit**
I see Dan has started a poll here so I guess time will tell 😉

 

[Dan]

Libraries in the UK with BSOL
UK Libraries with access to British Tiling Standards BS 5385

Company City Post code
Kent Libraries and Archives Maidstone ME14 2LH
MLA - Bolton Public Libraries Bolton BL1 1SA
MLA - Essex Libraries Chelmsford CM1 1LH
MLA - Hull Libraries Hull HU1 3TF
MLA - Sheffield Libraries & Sheffield S1 1XZ
Belfast Education & Library Board Belfast BT1 1EA
City University Library London EC1V 0HB
Durham University Library Durham DH1 3LY
Heriot-Watt University Library Edinburgh EH14 4AS
MLA - Cambridge Central Library Cambridge CB4 2BB
MLA - Doncaster Library Doncaster DN1 3JE
MLA - Lancashire County Library Preston, Lancashire PR1 2PP
MLA - Manchester Public Library Manchester M2 5PD
MLA - Norfolk CC Library Service Norwich NR1 2UA
MLA - Staffordshire CC Library & Stafford ST16 3HJ
National Library of Wales Aberystwyth SY23 3BU
Newcastle City Library Newcastle Upon Tyne NE1 8AX
Reading University Library Reading RG6 6AE
Strathclyde University Library Glasgow G4 0NS
The British Library London NW1 2DB
The Open University Library Milton Keynes MK7 6AA
University of Northumbria-Library Newcastle Upon Tyne NE1 8ST
The Oldham College Library Oldham OL9 6AA
The University of Manchester Library Manchester M13 9PP
Coventry Libraries and Information Coventry CV1 1FY
Liverpool City Libraries Liverpool L3 8EW
North East Scotland College Library+ Aberdeen AB21 9YA
ROnline-Kent Libraries, Registration and Archive Maidstone ME14 1LQ
University of Sussex Library Brighton BN1 9QL

Downloadable PDF List of UK Libraries with access to British Standards in Tiling BS5385

 

[Dan]

Access British Standards For Wall And Floor Tiling (bs 5385) For Free


Access British standards for free at the library in the thread above.

 

[Marvo]

Great to see the British Standards info is at least available for viewing for free at some public libraries still.

 

[Dan]

Yeah, and anybody can access them no matter where we live in the country. Not sure if there are library fees involved in general but it seems a fair deal considering they're a couple of hundred quid a pop.

 

[Marvo]

Do you need to actually go to the libraries or can they let you log into their intranet so you can view them on-line?

 

[Dan]

The link I provided is for Newcastle Upon Tyne library who allow anybody to register, they don't have to be a resident of the city. You then view them online but no print feature is available.

 

[Tile Shop]

Tiling to Floating Floors

I have seen various threads on here on this subject. Some of you say tile it, some of you say don't.

I've been speaking to various companies today, and after a little cutting and pasting, this is what I've got.

One of the key things I will ask of customers from now on, is to measure the amount of deflection there is in a floor before starting, but take from this what you will.

I guess alot of you will know this already, but for those of you who don't, I recommend printing this off and taking the to the bathroom for when you find the opportunity for a spot of light reading. Hope it helps 🙂
Tiling to Floating Floors


FLOATING FLOORS

Tiling onto a floor of this type carries an element of risk as the floor should remain as rigid as possible when loaded therefore it is difficult to provide an adhesive and grout recommendation based on the current floor build. They can be exposed to excessive movement due to the assembly but when adding layers of undertile heating the issues can be exacerbated.


The information below represents the minimum requirement for a floating floor application and is as recommended by British Standards and found in the current codes of practice in The Tile Association Document - Tiling to Sheets and Boards below:


4.2.2.2 Floating Floors


• Direct fixing of rigid flooring such as ceramic tiles to floating timber floors entails an element of risk and where practicable, should be avoided by the use of a proprietary intermediate substrate.


• Ceramic floor tiles should never be installed on floating timber floors subject to heavy static, dynamic loadings.


• In areas of light foot trafficking, where this method of construction is most frequently used, precautions need to be taken to avoid tile or grout cracking and/or loss of adhesion.


• Where the floating floor is laid over a concrete sub-floor the concrete must have an even finish with no localised raised areas (fins, ridges) as these may cause uneven compression of the overlaying resilient insulating layer.


• The insulation layer should be of sufficient density to provide firm support to the overlaying timber boards, with minimum deflection under static and dynamic loads, expanded polystyrene foam is not a suitable underlayment for a floating floor which is to receive ceramic tiling.


• Any tongue and groove joints of boards must be fully located and bonded with a high quality wood adhesive.


• Where boards have to be cut, any butt joints must be supported from beneath with a nogging.


• Where a batten or timber bearer system is used the boards should be screwed to the supports at 300mm centres.


• Apply a proprietary intermediate substrate system designed specifically for use on floating timber sub-floors.

Tiling to Floating Floors
The guidance for timber floors in BS 5385: Part 3: 2014 outlines in clause 6.3.4.3 that there is an need for the floor to be able to carry the additional dead load of up to 0.8 kN/m², and the probable dynamic loading, without excessive movement or deflection. In terms of vertical deflection, additional guidance is also offered in the above standard also recommends that; “The floor should have minimal vertical deflection under load, typically for ceramic tiles, the floor should not deflect any more than 1/360 of the span of the structure or for natural stone tiles this is typically 1/720 of the span in the case of most natural stone”. (BS 5385😛art 3: 2014 clause 6.3.4.4 floating floors). Alternatively for additional rigidity and the best chance of success, two layers of plywood may be used with each layer being a minimum of 12mm thick and laid so that the joints on both layers do not coincide (cross bonded).


One solution would be to overboard the existing plywood, with a suitable cement based backer board of the recommended thickness from the manufacturer. These boards would be cross bonded and secured using screw fixings to ensure rigidity.

Once a suitable floor substrate is achieved then consideration can be given to use of an uncoupling matting i.e. Ditra, Durabase or BAL Rapid Mat.

Alternatively BAL Single Part Fastflex can be used to fix the tiles directly to the substrate.


Whichever of the two options are selected the a additional flexible additive will be required with a singlepart flexible grout.


Additional movement joints may also be required to help alleviate the likelihood of excessive movement observed within these types of floors.

 

[Dan]

I have seen various threads on here on this subject. Some of you say tile it, some of you say don't.

I've been speaking to various companies today, and after a little cutting and pasting, this is what I've got.

One of the key things I will ask of customers from now on, is to measure the amount of deflection there is in a floor before starting, but take from this what you will.

I guess alot of you will know this already, but for those of you who don't, I recommend printing this off and taking the to the bathroom for when you find the opportunity for a spot of light reading. Hope it helps 🙂

FLOATING FLOORS

Tiling onto a floor of this type carries an element of risk as the floor should remain as rigid as possible when loaded therefore it is difficult to provide an adhesive and grout recommendation based on the current floor build. They can be exposed to excessive movement due to the assembly but when adding layers of undertile heating the issues can be exacerbated.


The information below represents the minimum requirement for a floating floor application and is as recommended by British Standards and found in the current codes of practice in The Tile Association Document - Tiling to Sheets and Boards below:


4.2.2.2 Floating Floors


• Direct fixing of rigid flooring such as ceramic tiles to floating timber floors entails an element of risk and where practicable, should be avoided by the use of a proprietary intermediate substrate.


• Ceramic floor tiles should never be installed on floating timber floors subject to heavy static, dynamic loadings.


• In areas of light foot trafficking, where this method of construction is most frequently used, precautions need to be taken to avoid tile or grout cracking and/or loss of adhesion.


• Where the floating floor is laid over a concrete sub-floor the concrete must have an even finish with no localised raised areas (fins, ridges) as these may cause uneven compression of the overlaying resilient insulating layer.


• The insulation layer should be of sufficient density to provide firm support to the overlaying timber boards, with minimum deflection under static and dynamic loads, expanded polystyrene foam is not a suitable underlayment for a floating floor which is to receive ceramic tiling.


• Any tongue and groove joints of boards must be fully located and bonded with a high quality wood adhesive.


• Where boards have to be cut, any butt joints must be supported from beneath with a nogging.


• Where a batten or timber bearer system is used the boards should be screwed to the supports at 300mm centres.


• Apply a proprietary intermediate substrate system designed specifically for use on floating timber sub-floors.


The guidance for timber floors in BS 5385: Part 3: 2014 outlines in clause 6.3.4.3 that there is an need for the floor to be able to carry the additional dead load of up to 0.8 kN/m², and the probable dynamic loading, without excessive movement or deflection. In terms of vertical deflection, additional guidance is also offered in the above standard also recommends that; “The floor should have minimal vertical deflection under load, typically for ceramic tiles, the floor should not deflect any more than 1/360 of the span of the structure or for natural stone tiles this is typically 1/720 of the span in the case of most natural stone”. (BS 5385😛art 3: 2014 clause 6.3.4.4 floating floors). Alternatively for additional rigidity and the best chance of success, two layers of plywood may be used with each layer being a minimum of 12mm thick and laid so that the joints on both layers do not coincide (cross bonded).


One solution would be to overboard the existing plywood, with a suitable cement based backer board of the recommended thickness from the manufacturer. These boards would be cross bonded and secured using screw fixings to ensure rigidity.

Once a suitable floor substrate is achieved then consideration can be given to use of an uncoupling matting i.e. Ditra, Durabase or BAL Rapid Mat.

Alternatively BAL Single Part Fastflex can be used to fix the tiles directly to the substrate.


Whichever of the two options are selected the a additional flexible additive will be required with a singlepart flexible grout.


Additional movement joints may also be required to help alleviate the likelihood of excessive movement observed within these types of floors.

I've edited the thread title so it helps people find it. A good thread and one that will save a lot of money for a lot of people.

Personally I've seen that many threads on failing floating floors I think I'd just not risk it and recommend they use laminate flooring or something instead.

 

[Tile Shop]

Setting this up to test would be a pain. Would be tempting to ask someone to give it a try, but i appreciate that you can't use a customer as a lab rat. It would always need to be done at the "customers own risk". But then how can i tiler guarentee his work? If anything happens to pop, crack or knacker, straight away its the tiler thats gonna get it in the......

But then again, if anyone has had success at this, i'd like to hear tips on how it was done for future reference.

 

[Dan]

Can't remember who it was who did a floating floor a few weeks back. They said how they managed to do it. But it didn't have deflection from memory.

 

[Sean Kelly]

Hows this for a floating floor.

From the bottom to the top.
Conservatory with concrete base.
25mm insulation bonded to 18mm chipboard.
Electric UFH film (designed for laminate or wood floor).
Vapour barrier.
9mm ply screwed down through all the above and into the concrete.

Lady pleaded with me to tile it with 80x80 porc tiles.

There was deflection and I told the woman if she wanted ceramic/porc tiles then do not go ahead with the above installation. She went ahead and now can't find anyone to tile it. That was 2 weeks ago..................it's probably tiled by now!!!!!!! but not by a tiler!

 

[widler]

I've tiled a floater , big kitchen, about 40m2, by the time I'd fixed it to the concrete substrate and stuck hardi on it, was solid as a rock

 

[Old Mod]

Setting this up to test would be a pain. Would be tempting to ask someone to give it a try, but i appreciate that you can't use a customer as a lab rat. It would always need to be done at the "customers own risk". But then how can i tiler guarentee his work? If anything happens to pop, crack or knacker, straight away its the tiler thats gonna get it in the......

But then again, if anyone has had success at this, i'd like to hear tips on how it was done for future reference.

Can't remember who it was who did a floating floor a few weeks back. They said how they managed to do it. But it didn't have deflection from memory.

Oh bugger! Thought I'd posted this at 3 o'clock! Haha

@AliGage, it's his JOTM entry this month! 😉

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

ok for the simple among us what do you mean by floating floor. ie chip board on joist? floors at sea ?floors on the ceiling ?

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Hows this for a floating floor.

From the bottom to the top.
Conservatory with concrete base.
25mm insulation bonded to 18mm chipboard.
Electric UFH film (designed for laminate or wood floor).
Vapour barrier.
9mm ply screwed down through all the above and into the concrete.

Lady pleaded with me to tile it with 80x80 porc tiles.

There was deflection and I told the woman if she wanted ceramic/porc tiles then do not go ahead with the above installation. She went ahead and now can't find anyone to tile it. That was 2 weeks ago..................it's probably tiled by now!!!!!!! but not by a tiler!

ok you point out all the mistakes .what was your recomendaions to put it right

 

[AliGage]

Can't remember who it was who did a floating floor a few weeks back. They said how they managed to do it. But it didn't have deflection from memory.

Yep it was me. Entered into June's JOTM.

August 2015 jotm

@Ray TT @ Porcel-Thin - Rough concrete Base, with 100mm insulation, over laid with 22mm green chipboard T&G. That Was how mine was made up. No glue, no fixings.

That is the same job I mentioned in another thread @Dan where B&Q had pooped up the very expensive kitchen install.
It's been down about two months now and still all good. I was there Today dropping gear off. New fitters were there literally ripping out the kitchen.
That's my fun job for this week. Filling in the blanks so they can install the kitchen on top and at the correct height!

 

[AliGage]

ANY "floating floor" can be tiled if you remove ALL deflection.

In my opinion.

 

[Dan]

I'm with you all now mate. I did some long hours June / July - confused a load of threads and people. They always say it's counter productive to thrash hours at work eh

@Paul C. could do with studying it.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Yep it was me. Entered into June's JOTM.

August 2015 jotm

@Ray TT @ Porcel-Thin - Rough concrete Base, with 100mm insulation, over laid with 22mm green chipboard T&G. That Was how mine was made up. No glue, no fixings.

That is the same job I mentioned in another thread @Dan where B&Q had pooped up the very expensive kitchen install.
It's been down about two months now and still all good. I was there Today dropping gear off. New fitters were there literally ripping out the kitchen.
That's my fun job for this week. Filling in the blanks so they can install the kitchen on top and at the correct height!

ok you put me down for asking how he would deal with this .deflextion i may know a thing or two

 

[AliGage]

@Ray TT @ Porcel-Thin I might be getting confused here, but I wasn't putting you down for asking, if that's what you ment.
I was just answering your question.

 

[Sean Kelly]

ok you point out all the mistakes .what was your recomendaions to put it right

Ray, a bit of a long story involving a lady I did a quote for tiling her porch. She did not accept my advice or quote, but opted to employ the decorator to tile the floor. She had me back again to quote for her new conservatory, but told me not to look at the porch floor because she is not happy with it (dodgy grout lines and dodgy cuts).

I measured the conservatory at 11sqm and asked what was going down on top of the concrete. She told me about this special UFH and insulation, 9mm ply and chipboard. I advised her that insulation boards with standard wired UFH with SLC was a cheaper and better solution. I told her if she went ahead with what was being planned then I would not tile it. I even rang the manufacturer of the UFH and they told me it is not designed for ceramic or porcelain tiles.

She also insisted it was only 9sqm.

She went ahead with the installation and called me back because she could not get a tiler to tile it. I bounced up and down on the floor and said that it can't be tiled.

By now I have spent at least a day visiting her 3 times, talking to her floor layer, talking the the tech team for UFH, looking on the internet (inc. Tilersforums), ringing the conservatory people, ringing the customer and emailing the customer with findings and info. Have I been paid for my time? No.

I then get another email from her pleading with me to tile it because her furniture will soon be delivered. I did not reply

The conservatory installers don't want to help her because they now have all her money. She is asking me what to do, but I have already given her loads of advice. The only advice now is to go with amtico or laminate......not ideal in a conservatory.