Important Changes to Tiling Standards

[Tile Shop]

ok for the simple among us what do you mean by floating floor. ie chip board on joist? floors at sea ?floors on the ceiling ?

My understanding is you either have insulation of some kind (like polystirene). Or thin air and a few support joists to raise the height above another substate (which chances are would be better to tile onto, as from what i've had customers tell me in the past is that its concrete). Ultimately though, the tongue and groove chipboad or ply they use to cover over isn't screwed down. Just loose laid with no fixings.

If i've got that wrong, please can someone correct me as this may be turning into a greyer area that i realised. As you can imagine, i don't get as much experience at this as some of you who go out and actually see it.

 

[AliGage]

Pretty much @Paul C.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

@Ray TT @ Porcel-Thin I might be getting confused here, but I wasn't putting you down for asking, if that's what you ment.
I was just answering your question.

i already new your your answer .so that was never in question .what was in question was .you cant tile this so whats your answer .dont tell me what you cant do tell me what you can do .it was not asked of you

 

[Just Rizzle]

floating floors was the reason I started to use karndean bends and flexes no problem.
ads an extra string to my bow and I don't have all my eggs in one basket .

 

[Dan]

Ray, a bit of a long story involving a lady I did a quote for tiling her porch. She did not accept my advice or quote, but opted to employ the decorator to tile the floor. She had me back again to quote for her new conservatory, but told me not to look at the porch floor because she is not happy with it (dodgy grout lines and dodgy cuts).

I measured the conservatory at 11sqm and asked what was going down on top of the concrete. She told me about this special UFH and insulation, 9mm ply and chipboard. I advised her that insulation boards with standard wired UFH with SLC was a cheaper and better solution. I told her if she went ahead with what was being planned then I would not tile it. I even rang the manufacturer of the UFH and they told me it is not designed for ceramic or porcelain tiles.

She also insisted it was only 9sqm.

She went ahead with the installation and called me back because she could not get a tiler to tile it. I bounced up and down on the floor and said that it can't be tiled.

By now I have spent at least a day visiting her 3 times, talking to her floor layer, talking the the tech team for UFH, looking on the internet (inc. Tilersforums), ringing the conservatory people, ringing the customer and emailing the customer with findings and info. Have I been paid for my time? No.

I then get another email from her pleading with me to tile it because her furniture will soon be delivered. I did not reply

The conservatory installers don't want to help her because they now have all her money. She is asking me what to do, but I have already given her loads of advice. The only advice now is to go with amtico or laminate......not ideal in a conservatory.

You can't help them all Sean. Block and delete the silly sod. She will never learn.

Just been reading your year in the life of a new tiler thread. Christ that's going back a bit now eh?

You should add to it at some point. 7 years in the life of a new tiler.

 

[White Room]

7 years in the life of a new tiler.

That long ago....doesn't time fly.

 

[Dan]

It does mate!

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Ray, a bit of a long story involving a lady I did a quote for tiling her porch. She did not accept my advice or quote, but opted to employ the decorator to tile the floor. She had me back again to quote for her new conservatory, but told me not to look at the porch floor because she is not happy with it (dodgy grout lines and dodgy cuts).

I measured the conservatory at 11sqm and asked what was going down on top of the concrete. She told me about this special UFH and insulation, 9mm ply and chipboard. I advised her that insulation boards with standard wired UFH with SLC was a cheaper and better solution. I told her if she went ahead with what was being planned then I would not tile it. I even rang the manufacturer of the UFH and they told me it is not designed for ceramic or porcelain tiles.

She also insisted it was only 9sqm.

She went ahead with the installation and called me back because she could not get a tiler to tile it. I bounced up and down on the floor and said that it can't be tiled.

By now I have spent at least a day visiting her 3 times, talking to her floor layer, talking the the tech team for UFH, looking on the internet (inc. Tilersforums), ringing the conservatory people, ringing the customer and emailing the customer with findings and info. Have I been paid for my time? No.

I then get another email from her pleading with me to tile it because her furniture will soon be delivered. I did not reply

The conservatory installers don't want to help her because they now have all her money. She is asking me what to do, but I have already given her loads of advice. The only advice now is to go with amtico or laminate......not ideal in a conservatory.

ok ready to be shot down get rid of all layers above conarete. screed floor up with sand and cement then over lay with 6 mm warm up boards or simalar then lay ufh self level then tile.no movement no problem.1oomm board will give no more insalion on screed than 6mm boards

 

[Dan]

ok ready to be shot down get rid of all layers above conarete. screed floor up with sand and cement then over lay with 6 mm warm up boards or simalar then lay ufh self level then tile.no movement no problem.1oomm board will give no more insalion on screed than 6mm boards

That's actually what I'd have said. Get rid of the lot and screed it.

 

[AliGage]

FLOATING FLOORS

............

One solution would be to overboard the existing plywood, with a suitable cement based backer board of the recommended thickness from the manufacturer. These boards would be cross bonded and secured using screw fixings to ensure rigidity .

This is exactly what I did. Glued, and screwed with 77 screws per board.

 

[widler]

This is exactly what I did. Glued, and screwed with 77 screws per board.

I used 100mm concrete screws , just screwed it like a joist floor, just prayed to the good Lord that no mains gas/water pipes were hanging about 😉

 

[AliGage]

I used 100mm concrete screws , just screwed it like a joist floor, just prayed to the good Lord that no mains gas/water pipes were hanging about 😉

That was why I didn't do it that way. Both mains were under it somewhere. It wasn't worth the risk especially with so many eyes on me.
But what I dud certainly worked!

 

[trustiling]

My understanding is you either have insulation of some kind (like polystirene). Or thin air and a few support joists to raise the height above another substate (which chances are would be better to tile onto, as from what i've had customers tell me in the past is that its concrete). Ultimately though, the tongue and groove chipboad or ply they use to cover over isn't screwed down. Just loose laid with no fixings.

If i've got that wrong, please can someone correct me as this may be turning into a greyer area that i realised. As you can imagine, i don't get as much experience at this as some of you who go out and actually see it.

From what I've seen the chipboard is screwed to the joists but the joists are 'floating' on what normally is a layer of foam under each of them as the screed or slab is rarely flat enough to fix them down. The floor will appear flat and sound although will deflect to a good degree.

Suspended floor is timber joists set on top of stud, dwarf or supporting walls where generally the deflection is negligible

The first example you could lift the chipboard and fix and plug the joists to the concrete but then without packing the finished floor would be crazy undulating everywhere

 

[AliGage]

From what I've seen the chipboard is screwed to the joists but the joists are 'floating' on what normally is a layer of foam under each of them as the screed or slab is rarely flat enough to fix them down. The floor will appear flat and sound although will deflect to a good degree.

Suspended floor is timber joists set on top of stud, dwarf or supporting walls where generally the deflection is negligible

The first example you could lift the chipboard and fix and plug the joists to the concrete but then without packing the finished floor would be crazy undulating everywhere

It's rare that I've ever found any joists in a floating floor

 

[trustiling]

It's rare that I've ever found any joists in a floating floor

Not strictly joists but nearly always 50mm square timber then the services ran between them on top of concrete. Very common in new buld flats 20/30 years ago

 

[Wishiwasatoptiler]

So I'm in an independent tile showroom picking their brains on all things tiling and we touch on the subject of tile manufactures, so the info I'm told by the shop assistant is that the industry standard for tile size tolerances is 5%, meaning that one tile in a pack can be that much bigger than the one next to it in the same pack, even went as for as saying this is across the size range, so in that case they suggest a 600x600 tile could have a 5% increase across a pack. That can't be right can it.

 

[Ian]

No mate that's not right, if it's +/- 5% that's 30mm either way on a 600mm tile. I stand to be corrected what the actual BS standard is but I believe it's +/- 3mm which is still unacceptable as that could mean a 6mm difference between tiles, which is pants!

 

[mattle40]

Think bri is right, I had a problem with imola of all people about it with a tile called Antares, I had huge variation in a batch of 60x40's but was within tolerance. Had the shop go through boxes and pick the best for me.
Very poor really

 

[Dan]

You can all check the standards for free to find out. 🙂

 

[Wishiwasatoptiler]

Even with limited knowledge I thought it was off as like you say that would be 30mm which would just be way off.
So +/- 3mm on any tile size??? Bri!

So with that in mind, when laying the tiles, it's just about splitting the differance across the last laid tile then, as I do unless you can get the shop to hand pick your tiles for you like matt...;-)

 

[Dan]

What else can you do? Lol

If you ever spot it just try and sway your customers away from that range or even that make. And make sure you report it to the manufacturer.

While its BS. They will want to know its happening and might not if QA is appauling. They could do with knowing as it might be a tiny adjustment to something in factory to correct it.

 

[Unused Account 1]

Upto 300x300 upto3mm,and bigger tiles 5mm,thats what i remember from reps i knew

 

[jobdone]

It makes for interesting days. Thin joints and tiles of varying sizes doesn't take much to make you look bad or having to take tiles off and change.

 

[gamma38]

I was fitting some 300 x 300 absolute black for a customer around a year ago. It came from one of the online suppliers. It was shocking, up to 8mm difference. I called them up and asked them the tolerances. Eventually got an answer....... 5mm.... which is still shocking. I then proceeded to tell them the stuff i had was out of tolerance. The next reply was even worse. Oh yes that's the cheap stuff and it is sometimes a bit out of tolerance. After being put through to her manager and some harsh words, they agreed to resend me the same quantity out of the premium range. Tolerances for the premium...... 2mm.

 

[Unused Account 1]

Cheaper porcelain tiles are normally the main culprit ,rectified hard enough as it is to fit perfect with bad sizes,

Without the different sizes lol

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

well let me get this right bs again and again lower standards and these are the ones you follow .i wonder just how many hand shakes it takes to get your doggy tiles approved and all other rubbish that they spec to minumum standard when there not cutting and pasting . bs standard who right them might be worth a look and who do they work for .the answers are out there

 

[Wishiwasatoptiler]

This makes for intresting reading, so not wanting to name or shame, and this may not be the section for it but which tile manufactures should I be wary of.

 

[Unused Account 1]

Tiled the whole downstairs of a new build ,floating floor,the customer supplied the adhesive with guarentee in writing that it would not crack or lift from the company ,forget wich adhesive a few years ago ,perfect for the tiler is covered

 

[AliGage]

I've never found any tiles so far out if tolerance like that.
Some cheap cheap tiles have maybe been upto 3mm. I'd just use these for cuts.

With most porcelain being rectified these days it's rare to have them so far out of whack IMO.

 

[Tile Shop]

Tiles have to conform to BS EN 14411. 82 pages but this is a snippet that will cover (at a guess) about 95% of all ceramics available today. There will be standards for Natural stone too... I will need to try and find these

Extruded ceramics:
Tolerance from the average size = +2% to a maximum of +4mm
Tolerance for thicknes = 10%

Dust Pressed ceramics: (which most ceramics and porcelain are these days)
Tolerance from the average size (for tiles between 70 and 150mm) = +0.9mm
Tolerance from the average size (for tiles 150mm or greater) = +0.6% to a maximium of 2mm
Tolerance for thickness = +/- 5% to a maximimun of 0.5mm
(This also applies to rectified.... don't be fooled)

This shouldn't be confused with nominal sizing...... This is just a guide to the size contained in the box. The average size of the tiles contained must be within -10mm (based on the example given in BS EN14411 but I will need to dig deeper for the exact numbers).

Take Johnsons as an example. They make it clear on the box and show the nominal size as 200x100 (which is what most suppliers will advertise them as) but the actual working size may be 197x97 but credit to them, they also mark this on the packs. Most factories only provide the nominal size, so what you actually buy may be a very slightly different size, but still within the nominal sizing tolerance.

Its a bugger when we get a customer, orders some tiles to match some existing tiles which are 200x100, see a tile advertised at 200x100, that then gets delivered 3mm smaller each way. One of the reasons that samples are advised and that tiles shouldn't just be ordered on a whim.

Another tolerance fact for you. Did you know that if you buy a tile that has a slight manufacturing fault, like pits in the glazes or a printing error, as long as the fault only covers no more than 5% of the face, THAT IS ACCEPTABLE according to BS???? guess what else BS stands for!

Its way too early for this.... I need a coffee and 10 minutes brain rest....... "Tolerance"...... hate that word. Just another wall to hide behind.

 

[Tile Shop]

Wanna hear another absolute stinker on this??? Based on the examples given in EN14411..... again.

Example.... A range of tiles which for examples sake is called Asbestos Bog.... available in 3 colours, Black, White and Poo Brown (3 colours associated with an asbestos bog... see what I did there? white pan, black cistern, and...... nevermind!)

The nominal size is 600x300. The customer has worked out a design for a single wall based on this advertised (and legally acceptable) size.

Due to the manufucturing process and timings of the batches, the Black is 599x299. The White is 595x296. The Poo Brown is 600x295.

These tiles are within nominal sizing.
These tiles are within tolerance because tolerance is only forced upon a single tile design from a single batch. Technically, all 3 tiles are different so the tolerance doesn't apply between them.
Tragically, these tiles conform to British and European Standards.

Bummer ay!