Help! Advice needed re cracked floor grout

[kelly060479]

Hi there,

I've recently had a bathroom fitted less than 2 weeks ago, costing over 6000 by a bathroom fitting company who done the whole job.

Upon completion I was happy with how it looked. However, after a couple of days I noticed hairline cracks appearing in the floor grout and it is coming away in places. I complained to the company and they said that they don't guarantee the grout and it would've been explained to us at the quotation that this was not guarantted. I found this ludicrous as it was most certainly not explained. Furthermore, I would've assumed that along with plumbing, electrics etc that tiling would come under workmanship. The company boasts on offering a 5yr guarantee on this.

On the business card it states that they only use there own tradesman. However, the tiler they used wasn't. The tiler is self employed, he gave us his card whilst he was the job. I called him re the problems with the grout. He said he wasn't surprised it had cracked. He believe's the cause of the cracking to be the company's fault as the plywood they laid before he tiled was too thin. I asked the tiler, why would you proceed to tile on a base that was not substantial? He said he told the company and they told him to carry on with the tiling regardless.

The company have since told me the plywood they used was 6mm and had 3 sheets, apparently they seem to thinnk they have used this on loads of jobs without a problem. The tiler thinks it should be at least 9 or 10mm and 1 sheet.

I've tried to find the cause of the cracking on the internet. And the two possible reasons is that the plywood is too thin causing movement or that the grout was too watery. But I'm leaning more towards the plywood been too thin, and the tiler's words have just strengthened this. Also the floor was laid on different occasions so with two different batches of grout. It would have to be a very big coincidence for a qualified tiler to to make two batches of grout watery, do you agree?

Sorry it's long. I basically have two questions I want answers to.

1. The most probable cause of the cracking
2. The thickness and type of plywood that should've been used. In an upstairs bathroom with floorboards.

Thank You

 

[Fred]

The adhesive companies generally recommend a min of 15mm ply screwed and fixed every 6 inches. I would say the cause is as the tiler has said, too thinner ply. They may have also placed the ply down with tack pins and not screws, which really pulls the sub-floor secure to it.

 

[DHTiling]

hi kelly..
the plywood should be minimum of 12mm and of exterior grade.....( most adhesive comps say 15mm/18mm ) but on 99% of bathrooms 12 mm will do
it should be fixed with rust proof screws every 200/300 mm.
If a thin ply has been used then it is probably the sub-floor that is to blame especially if the floor was springy or in bad repair to start with.. i.e. loose boards etc..
WHAT TYPE OF ADHESIVE WAS USED... this should be a flexible type cement based product..suitable for tiling onto ply with..was the ply primed..the adhesive could be breaking away from the substrate and was the grout used a flexible one...all this questions need to asked.....as for the bathroom company saying its not covered in there guarantee then that's rubbish..stick to your guns and demand it is re-done properly......The tiler should never have fixed the tiles if he knew it was incorectly prepared for him..what else has he covered up that was prepared wrong.....get back on the phone and demand it is sorted or you are going to trade and standards......good luck..

 

[elliesdad224]

it really depends on what condition the floor was in prior to tiling, is it floorboards and if so were they fixed down prior to tiling? has flexible adheshive and grout been used because it should have been, the ply should be screwed down not nailed so you need to check that, i suspect that the tiler if he is suppling his materials may have just used rapid set and normal grout although i could be wrong, fact is if he was not happy with the floor prior to tiling then the onus was on him to either rectify it himself or to refuse to do the work until it was , goodluck

 

[Fred]

Agree with Dave re trading standards, their trying it on.

 

[kelly060479]

Thanks for the replies so far!

I am not sure what type of grout or adhesive was used. I can only recall the grout been waterproof stated. And I imagine that along with the plywood the company used the cheapest grout and adhesive but I maybe wrong. The floorboards were taken up and loose prior to boarding. How well they put them back down I don't know.

The tiler also mentioned that the floor isn't level. He says if you put a spirit level on the floor it will show you that. I'm astonised at this. So I imagine this is due to the preparing of the floor ie the plywood?

So opinion seem to be that the subfloor is inadequate?

The company seem to be passing the buck now that they have been paid in full. They reckon it's down to the tiler to put it right, and currently hes not answering their calls. I understand the tiler nor the company will be working together again.

But my arguement to them is that my contract is with them. The floor is flawed so it is upto them to put it right. They do not want to know, but I'm not going to let this go without a fight. Paid enough money for the bathroom which is stunning, that is until you look down to the floor!

Kelly

 

[Fred]

To be honest with you, I have actually walked off jobs when I have seen builders & companies doing preperation like this. I learn't this the hard way years ago! Talk to the CAB.

 

[DHTiling]

Did they pay the tiler..because if they did then they contracted him and its up to them to correct the work.. they got the tiler to do it not you.........seek legal advise if you get no satisfaction..there are to many of these companies getting away with...dont be afraid to name and shame them if you get no joy..

 

[Fred]

Yeah, there should be a web site to shame these people before clients sign up to them, that way they can see who is a pain later on.

 

[scottish tiler]

yeah it sounds like the floor wasnt screwd down properly or the wrong adhesive was used,it wont matter that the floor wasnt level altho it would help the finish if it was and im sure it dosnt matter if the grout was mixed runny or stiff as it drys up the same as long as its done right, i would keep ringing them both as there isnt a cheap way out of it and the only way to find out who mucked up is to lift the floor and see whats wrong with it, if the tiler knew it was messed up then realy he shouldnt have tiled it

 

[elliesdad224]

take plenty of pictures kelly so that you have a record of the defects, i did a job for a lady not very long ago, she had paid £1200 for the tiles and 500 to the tiler in labour charges, it was propably the worst job i had seen and after removing some tiles i found huge amounts of adheshive which was stuck to bare brick, my labour charge to tile her room would have been around £1000 plus materials, it was very expensive tiles in an intricate pattern, after i had finished the lady changed her mind and decided to go to trading standards, unfortunately the evidence was gone and they could do nothing so before you decide to fix the job and sue for your money make sure you have photograpic evidence,perhaps get a decent tiler to quote for the job and maybe he will list what he thinks is wrong for you. regards

 

[kelly060479]

The company contracted the tiler in. The tiler said hed usually do about 3 or 4 jobs a month for them. Later on the phone he said he's told them on several jobs including mine that the ply has been too thin. But they told him to carry on and that he'd still get paid. So rather than lose x amount days work and pay he's done as he's told. Very underhand I know, but I'm just glad that he was honest with me on the phone about the problem. Unlike the company.

Rather than get my own plumbers sparks tilers etc and do my own bathroom to save money. I thought I'd get this company that does the whole lot. More efficient, quicker turnaround etc but it's more hassle than its worth.

Kelly

 

[DHTiling]

Good luck kelly and let us know how you get on but it might be like..:banghead:

 

[kelly060479]

Thanks Dom

I'm going to give them till the end of the week to sort the problem. If no joy verbally, I will put it in writing to them. If still no joy then I will proceed with trading standings via consumer direct. Get an independant expert/tiler to diagnose the fault with a report and do the remedial work then take the company to court.

What's more. The company didn't leave any spare wall or floor tiles for future use. ie if anything goes wrong with the pipework etc under their '5yr guarantee' and they have to take off tiles, there is no tiles to replace them with. Their answer was that the tiler wasted too many tiles! Hardly goodwill that is it?

Kelly

 

[scottish tiler]

what was the name of the company kelly

 

[elliesdad224]

i would not worry about the tiles, if they cant be found on this forum then they cant be found anywhere, regards

 

[kelly060479]

I'd prefer not to give the company's name just now. Would not want any possible legal implications or to jeapordise any future court case I may persue myself with the company.

But basically the company fits kitchens and bathrooms, been going over 20yrs. They fitted a neighbours bathroom about 3 yrs ago and I remembered their name from that. Rather foolishly though I did'nt actually ask my neighbour if she'd recommend them! And now with hindsight I wish I did, but they may well have done a good job on hers and I'd still be none the wiser.

It was the companies '5yr guarantee' promise that really grabbed me and the fact that they could do the job from start to finish without no worry of those added 'extras'.

Kelly

 

[Holohana]

could the tile association help maybe? Certainly in advising 100% on what materials should have been used.

 

[kelly060479]

Thank you for the replies so far.

I have called the company and asked them them to put the floor right. But they are refusing to accept liability. They referrred me to my contract, and one small sentence:-

DUE TO THE MOVEMENT IN WOODEN FLOORS (company name) DO NOT GIVE ANY GUARANTEE, AND THE CUSTOMER MAY TAKE THIS SERVICE AT THEIR OWN RISK.

I am somewhat bemused as it does not state TILING nor FLOOR PREPARATION in this statement, nor does it enlighten as to what the 'service' is.

Furthermore, I was not aware of these terms. The document I was presented with had 'contract agreement' and 'job listing' detailing bathroom components and works to be carried out. Along with a space on the bottom for me to sign. All the terms of the contract were on the back of the document. But this was not pointed out to me at the time of signing. How was I to know that the document was double sided? Surely the signature space should have been on the back beneath the terms.

The company provides a 5yr workmanship guarantee. Surely this should cover the workmanship of the floor preparation. Everybody knows that there is movement in wooden floors hence why the floor has to be prepared correctly to prevent this. But does there small and rather shrewd statement let them get away it?

Any advice in the wake of this new information would be very much appreciated. I feel like I'm out on a limb now.

Thanks Kelly

 

[DHTiling]

stand your ground kelly..have you seeked legal advise..I would..because it sounds as if they would fight it......

 

[elliesdad224]

:29: hi kelly, why not try a £50 letter from your solicitor, it shows you mean business, they just might take you seriously and try to rectify the problem, also if you could get a quote from someone to rectify the problem then at least you would know how much you are fighting for,