Tiling On Ufh?

[DriftFactory]

Hi All,

I'm new on here, just started advertising to do Tiling and quickly found myself in deep water. I'm a Carpenter/Joiner by trade, so over the years iv done tones of Kitchens and Bathrooms and quite a few big floor areas too, but the first few jobs Iv been to see are pretty big, ones a Collage Kitchen and Dining hall, 420sq meters of flooring and 185sq meters of walls..

The second job is the one I need help with, some tiler has already been in and laid about 40sq meters, there's another 100 meters to do. 600mm sq porcelain tiles.
The tiles have been laid directly on top of the underfloor heating pipes and polystyrene base, there's no screed and no membrane. Guessing this will not be ok?

Iv never tiled on to this type of UFH without a screed, and Iv never used Ditra, I'm guessing it's a good idea to use Ditra, but should it be fixed down at all? Glued perhaps?
Also some advise on expansion joints/strips would be good too, never used them before

Any help and advise will be greatly appreciated. 🙂

Kind regards
Dale

 

[Spud]

Dale please tell me you did some sort of technical planning before starting this job ?

 

[Spud]

Is it a poly pipe system and is the polystyrene fixed in anyway to the sub floor

 

[DriftFactory]

I havnt stared it, went to see it Saturday, stalling on putting a price in to do some research.

I presumed the poly stuff has been bonded down, it was done by a professional wet UFH company, it's around 1 or 2 million£ flat so they've spent the money and had it done properly, and it does look very neatly done.

 

[Spud]

First thing I would do is get the tile fixing specification from the underfloor heating manufacturer, next I would cross reference it with mapei technical or Bal technical or Glynn from tile master to see if they can offer you a solution to tile over the insulation , my guess would be a minimum specification of levelling compound then an anti fracture mat and then tiled with an c2ft s2 adhesive but that would need confirmation from whatever brand of adhesive you decide to use

 

[DriftFactory]

Excellent, I'll do just that. I was so flabagasted with the building and the size of the job that I didn't even pay attention the the brand of UFH.
All the tiles, adhesive and grout is there already.
The tiles already laid have been very well done, flat as a pancake, the customer was more than happy with them. The bed was at least half inch though, must be ripping through the adhesive.

 

[Spud]

I am confused dale , are the first 40m2 in a different area not over the ufh

 

[LM]

Dale get a pro in for this, someone in London, I'm sure Gary could steer you on this. This is not a job for someone who is not an experienced professional tiler. It'll work out cheaper in the long run! 🙂

 

[Martyn Leeds]

where's the tiler gone who laid the 40m?

 

[DriftFactory]

Gary, the entire flat has the UFH. The 40sqm has been laid directly on top of the pipes.

Lee, I can tile pretty well, I'm not going to get someone else in, just need advice on what to do with the subfloor.

Martyn, the customer said the tilers wife has given birth 2months premature so he's up'd and gone, whether that's true or not remains to be seen.

 

[Old Mod]

As Gary says, contact the adhesive manufacturers tech dept, depending on who it is, they may do a site visit and give u further guidance Dale.

 

[DriftFactory]

Just to update this, the UFH is officially endorsed to tile directly on to by Mapei.. I'm going to pass on this job, can smell a rat somewhere and think it may end up being more hassle than it's worth. The client has said they'll pay £**sqm cash if anyone wants the job.. Job is in Weighbridge Surrey, KT13. If anyone wants it, drop me a pm and I'll send you the clients number.

Price removed.

 

[Brian the Tile]

Think your doing the right thing passing,good luck for the future

 

[Old Mod]

Unfortunately Dale, prices are not permitted in an open forum.
You weren't to know, so no problem.
There are places where prices can be discussed once you are accepted into the 'Tilers forum Arms' this is a private forum for Proffesional fixers only.
Which, when you fulfill the entry requirements, you'll be accepted in to.
Have a look at this.

How Do I Gain Entry To The TilersForums Arms (Professional Tiling Forum)?

 

[J Sid]

water ufh in screed not electric

Unfortunately Dale, prices are not permitted in an open forum.
You weren't to know, so no problem.
There are places where prices can be discussed once you are accepted into the 'Tilers forum Arms' this is a private forum for Proffesional fixers only.
Which, when you fulfill the entry requirements, you'll be accepted in to.
Have a look at this.

How Do I Gain Entry To The TilersForums Arms (Professional Tiling Forum)?

bit slow there @3_fall 🙂 I thought a shocking low price considering the risk involved🙁

 

[Old Mod]

water ufh in screed not electric

bit slow there @3_fall 🙂 I thought a shocking low price considering the risk involved🙁

Haha I don't read everything as soon as its posted Julian, even I'm allowed time to sleep and rest haha
I don't disagree with u tho!
Not far from me either haha
But price is even further away! 😀

 

[LM]

Dale get a pro in for this, someone in London, I'm sure Gary could steer you on this. This is not a job for someone who is not an experienced professional tiler. It'll work out cheaper in the long run! 🙂

 

[J Sid]

Haha I don't read everything as soon as its posted Julian, even I'm allowed time to sleep and rest haha
I don't disagree with u tho!
Not far from me either haha
But price is even further away! 😀

must have been having a #AndysMorning 😉

 

[DriftFactory]

Appologies for putting the price up, lesson learnt.

 

[Uheat - Neil]

Hi All,

I'm new on here, just started advertising to do Tiling and quickly found myself in deep water. I'm a Carpenter/Joiner by trade, so over the years iv done tones of Kitchens and Bathrooms and quite a few big floor areas too, but the first few jobs Iv been to see are pretty big, ones a Collage Kitchen and Dining hall, 420sq meters of flooring and 185sq meters of walls..

The second job is the one I need help with, some tiler has already been in and laid about 40sq meters, there's another 100 meters to do. 600mm sq porcelain tiles.
The tiles have been laid directly on top of the underfloor heating pipes and polystyrene base, there's no screed and no membrane. Guessing this will not be ok?

Iv never tiled on to this type of UFH without a screed, and Iv never used Ditra, I'm guessing it's a good idea to use Ditra, but should it be fixed down at all? Glued perhaps?
Also some advise on expansion joints/strips would be good too, never used them before

Any help and advise will be greatly appreciated. 🙂

Kind regards
Dale

Hi Dale
Going forward , if you would like any help with underfloor heating we have a dedicated website www.uheat.co.uk and can offer great discounts to forum members..regards Neil

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Hi Dale
Going forward , if you would like any help with underfloor heating we have a dedicated website www.uheat.co.uk and can offer great discounts to forum members..regards Neil

hi what are your basic specs for fixing direct on to wufh pipes porcelain tiles .what is your recommended
build up ?

 

[Uheat - Jake]

hi what are your basic specs for fixing direct on to wufh pipes porcelain tiles .what is your recommended
build up ?

Hiya Ray,

We have a 18mm Retrofix Heavy Panel which are made from recycled gypsum, paper and water, mixed in an 80%- 20% ratio to produce homogeneous, dense sheet material that is cured, they are pre grooved for 12mm pipe which will be spaced at 150mm.

This allows tiles and engineered wood to be installed directly on top of the panels, a carpet or vinyl would require a 6-9mm ply overboard.

It's a very quick installation method, boards can be fixed by low expansion fixing foam (which we also supply) which dries in 1hour.

If you would require some more details or would like me to do a quote for you please feel free to contact me and I'll be happy to help.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Hiya Ray,

We have a 18mm Retrofix Heavy Panel which are made from recycled gypsum, paper and water, mixed in an 80%- 20% ratio to produce homogeneous, dense sheet material that is cured, they are pre grooved for 12mm pipe which will be spaced at 150mm.

This allows tiles and engineered wood to be installed directly on top of the panels, a carpet or vinyl would require a 6-9mm ply overboard.

It's a very quick installation method, boards can be fixed by low expansion fixing foam (which we also supply) which dries in 1hour.

If you would require some more details or would like me to do a quote for you please feel free to contact me and I'll be happy to help.

so no decouple rs then ? no pressuring the floor while adhesive sets ? any flexible adhesives ? S1 OR S2 adhesive ? no fibra reinforced floor leveler.how much do the pipes expand hot under 2 to 3 bar pressure .
thanks for your answers on all these

 

[Uheat - Jake]

so no decouple rs then ? no pressuring the floor while adhesive sets ? any flexible adhesives ? S1 OR S2 adhesive ? no fibra reinforced floor leveler.how much do the pipes expand hot under 2 to 3 bar pressure .
thanks for your answers on all these

A decoupling membrane can be used and stuck down with a Flexible tile adhesive, All adhesives we recommend to be used should be Flexible. Panels need to be sprayed with the glue, left for a few minutes before being laid and then stood on for a moment, this is the only pressure they need. The pipe doesn't expand with pressure, it can expand with heat at 0,16 mm/mK.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

A decoupling membrane can be used and stuck down with a Flexible tile adhesive, All adhesives we recommend to be used should be Flexible. Panels need to be sprayed with the glue, left for a few minutes before being laid and then stood on for a moment, this is the only pressure they need. The pipe doesn't expand with pressure, it can expand with heat at 0,16 mm/mK.

would you recommend priming these boards with an sbr primer as they are gypsum and should be treated the same way as a gypsum screed .to clarify your equation on expansion does this mean the pipes will exspand over a 20 m2 floor circa 100 lm of pipe 16 mm over the whole floor ? thank you for your answers

 

[Uheat - Jake]

would you recommend priming these boards with an sbr primer as they are gypsum and should be treated the same way as a gypsum screed .to clarify your equation on expansion does this mean the pipes will exspand over a 20 m2 floor circa 100 lm of pipe 16 mm over the whole floor ? thank you for your answers

Priming can be done on the bottom side of the panel.

The expansion would be tiny if anything, that information come straight from our Manufactures mouths.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

i do understand priming the bottom of the panel as you want it to stick to the floor but
you dont tile the bottom .you tile the top so i would have thought you should prime the
gypsum board so the tiles stick to the board .with the tiny expansion if any how do you recommend
defusing this across a floor or taking it out from the start .
how much tile fixing have the manufactures done ? .
thanks again for the answers

 

[Uheat - Jake]

i do understand priming the bottom of the panel as you want it to stick to the floor but
you dont tile the bottom .you tile the top so i would have thought you should prime the
gypsum board so the tiles stick to the board .with the tiny expansion if any how do you recommend
defusing this across a floor or taking it out from the start .
how much tile fixing have the manufactures done ? .
thanks again for the answers

The reason we can't say prime the top is we don't know how that will react with the pipe over the years of it being laid, it just hasn't been tested with the pipe.

The expansion would be so tiny you wouldn't need to factor anything in.

 

[Bill]

The reason we can't say prime the top is we don't know how that will react with the pipe over the years of it being laid, it just hasn't been tested with the pipe.

So how can you give any advice then?

 

[Uheat - Jake]

So how can you give any advice then?

Advice can only be given on the facts we know, we know that hasn't been tested therefore we wouldn't advise to primer on top of our retrofix boards.

 

[J Sid]

so no test has been done on tiling these boards?