Outside patio tiled 600x600 porcelain

[lukeb]

Hi Everyone.

In the quoting stage at the moment- bit of advice to get things right.

Quoting for a 30m2 garden patio done with 600x600 full bodied porcelain.
What preparation work would you sugest- base ready for tiling (level with turf)

I thought :
1.Dig the soil up 10 inches deep, weed control membrane than back fill with MOT type 1 (4 inches thick).
2.Lay blinding layer of soft sand and cover the lot with DPM.
3.Shutter the shape of the base (timber and pegs set finish level)
4. Ready mixed screed(as think better finish than concrete#) with 6mm wire mesh to reinforce

Was going to cover it to prevent it from rain just few inches away from the top as do not want to trap moisture in slab.

Thinking of leaving it for 5-6 weeks to cure and tile over.

Questions:
1.Is it ok to tile direct over screed after 6 weeks or shall I use any membrane????
2.what grout to go for and what external sealer(thouight Mapei Ultracolour and LTP Mattstone)
3.Am I right in all those preparation steps or shall I do something different.

All advice much appreciated.Thanks.......😉

 

[Old Mod]

I'd speak with schluter and enquire as to whether or not Ditra Drain can be used as a water vapour barrier in the same way as Ditra 25, if it can, then it'll solve a lot of problems for you.
You'll be able to go on much sooner, it won't effect drying process and you'll have a fully function drainage system below your tiles which will prevent the chance of the floor lifting due to moisture ingress.

 

[widler]

Don't dpm imo, but it needs a drainage system , wether its a very expensive schulter or a normal everyday drainage system is up to you and customer

 

[lukeb]

I'd speak with schluter and enquire as to whether or not Ditra Drain can be used as a water vapour barrier in the same way as Ditra 25, if it can, then it'll solve a lot of problems for you.
You'll be able to go on much sooner, it won't effect drying process and you'll have a fully function drainage system below your tiles which will prevent the chance of the floor lifting due to moisture ingress.

Hi .

Checked Shluter drain 4&8 online...looks convincing the only question is what is happening with water underneath tile where is that going.

The base for the patio will not be raised it will finish with the turf,they requested 1 row of paving block (flush with tiling )in case they might caught tile edges with lawn mover. It will have fall away from the house obviously.
hope its clear what i have said???Thanks

 

[lukeb]

how would that water drain away from underneath.confused

 

[Old Mod]

You will need seep holes in the block work or schluter may have a metal profile that will protect the tile edge and allow drainage. They have profiles like that for balconies and terraces, there's no reason why one won't suit the edge of a lawn.
Here's Ditra drain working, you can see water draining away from between the mat.
1st pic water on left side draining.


Water draining on far right side. It does work.


This is one of their profiles with seep holes.




You can see, they're not small.


They have quite a few different ones designed to allow drainage.

 

[lukeb]

Thanks for reply.

Is there any wrong doing if that drainage is not installed???
What are potential problems associated with tiling direct over screed???
Or is there any other ways just to eliminate expense of that drainage system.

 

[Old Mod]

Thanks for reply.

Is there any wrong doing if that drainage is not installed???
What are potential problems associated with tiling direct over screed???
Or is there any other ways just to eliminate expense of that drainage system.

Ok so this is sketchy info, cos I don't rightly know tbh. But I'm sure drainage of outside areas now falls under building regs, so I'd check that first.
Hopefully someone else will know, and will be able to clarify for you.

 

[lukeb]

Ok so this is sketchy info, cos I don't rightly know tbh. But I'm sure drainage of outside areas now falls under building regs, so I'd check that first.
Hopefully someone else will know, and will be able to clarify for you.

Thanks for comment and honesty.

 

[Spud]

You can dig a soak away in the garden it has to be a certain distance from the house, this enables the run off water to be soaked up into the water table, from the soak away you can use a standard gulley position in the patio, the gulley connects to the soak away via plastic drainage pipes they are lots of different types of drains/ gulleys from slot drains which are very neat to larger and wider channel gulleys have a chat with a mate who is a landscape gardener they will put you in the right direction

 

[J Sid]

Do I require Building Regulation Approval if I wanted to create a Patio?
The answer to this is no you do not need approval if you wish to create a patio. What you do need to consider however is that if you carry out any works and as a result, you make access to the property less satisfactory than it was before, you would be in contravention of the regulations. Say for example you changes levels and introduced stairs that were not there before, you would then be in contravention of the regulations.

 

[Bill]

Why can't you fix direct into a sand and cement bed? I would still create a sub-base with metal for movement but I would then fix directly into s&c. Done it lots of times outdoors. I don't see the difference to laying flagstones.

 

[lukeb]

They have concrete slabs atm and grass around (back garden)
Idea is to remove slabs and lay porcelain tile instead.There will be no difference to whats existing.

there is no drainage from existing slabs whatsoever.Geting frustrated as cant get definite answer or method of installation that i would be happy to guarantee.Done his bathrooms and kitchen tiling so its returning bussiness...dont realy want to let him down but at the same time dont want to ruin relationship we already have doing something i would be 100% happy.

I think i might go the route as in original post but use ditra 25 as bridgeing membrane and create fall away from the building.....................dont know.......anyone out there who done similar job🙁

 

[lukeb]

Might post a little scetch tomorrow after work

 

[Ttt1601]

Screed it with a run away from the house to carry water to an aco gulley drain connected to a soak away in the garden ( far enough away from house) and pick a gulley rail to run full length of tiles on the grass edge made of steel but thin profile, saves the need for block pavers at the edge and looks nicer, done a few outside areas like this

 

[lukeb]

Why can't you fix direct into a sand and cement bed? I would still create a sub-base with metal for movement but I would then fix directly into s&c. Done it lots of times outdoors. I don't see the difference to laying flagstones.

I feel more comfortable with a trowel and thin bed installation tbh.

 

[lukeb]

Right......need to get the quote sorted by Friday

I will do it as posted......will use gully drains instead of paving blocks as Ttt1601 sugested,
will try to reconnect to existing drainage system instead of soak away(unless not possible)
What fall would you sugest on 3.4m run???

Is Ultracolour (mapei) ok to grout it or shall I go for a different product(needs to be black)

 

[Spud]

You should aim for a minimum of 25mm per metre fall so around 85 mm over 3.4m no ,I got that wrong that is 1:40 you can be at 1:60-1:80 on a patio so anything from 40mm to 60 mm fall would be fine

 

[lukeb]

Got quote accepted...hurray.
Client decided to have it raisedone so it will allow to drain water to the gullys and hopefully connect to existing drainage system.

I will install aco drain against house wall as getting close to damp coarse level and one at the end of the patio.....
One more issue (hope not)is screed ok to go outside (ready mixed sand&cement fibre reinforced)as would prefer than concrete.....it's perfect flat finish what I'm after
And is Ultra colour by Mapei ok to be used externally.

Thanks guys for all reply and sugestions

 

[lukeb]

You should aim for a minimum of 25mm per metre fall so around 85 mm over 3.4m no ,I got that wrong that is 1:40 you can be at 1:60-1:80 on a patio so anything from 40mm to 60 mm fall would be fine

I have room to play now with fall but 1:80 would be minimum.

 

[Spud]

I have room to play now with fall but 1:80 would be minimum.

you have to try and stay 2 bricks below the damp course at you highest level

 

[lukeb]

you have to try and stay 2 bricks below the damp course at you highest level

Well....customer wants to go up to patio door....so will be over dcl.....Acu gully will go against the wall

I know I could get like clear membrane to protect walls but it's not permanent solution it's paint like product so I guess every now and then needs to be applied...

Not looking forward to it whatsoever....or maybe I'm getting to anal about it