are courses better than a good book ?

[Mike]

Having worked for two manufacturers and one tile distributor in the tile industry I can honestly say that the majority of problems I have come across with tile installations are due to poor workmanship. The problem with the tile industry is that someone can set themselves up as a tiler after reading a book when actually they have never seen a tile being laid. Could someone install a gas boiler or wire in some lights without the relevant qualifications I think not.
I'm not knocking any particular people but generally the standard of tiling in this country is pretty poor and the only way to improve this is through education. Anybody can stick tiles to a wall or floor including myself and in no way do I consider myself to be a tiler but what makes the difference between a good tiler and a bad tiler is knowing how to cope with tricky situations and use products correctly. I've been to site where BAL Ble Star has been used to stick Porcelain to screeded floors, I've seen 300 x 300 ceramic tiles stuck to walls with a small dab of adhesive in each corner and then fall in to the bath and I've seen areas of thousands of metres laid without a movement joint. If the people that had installed these tiles had been educated properly these problem wouldn't have happened.
I would imagine that any credible tiling course or college will now be in some way connected with the Tile Association and I should think this is a bench mark of a worthwile course.
In my experience most of the colleges offering NVQ courses have a staff of people who have served time on the tools and have worked round various problems on site, this info is then passed to the students.
I guess what ;m trying to say is that in my opinion a book is in no way a substitute for a good tiling course.
If the TTA have there way then eventually noboby will be able to tile without a qualification and the paperwork to prove it so education will be the only way. For people looking to get into tiling it would be best to be prepared now and not just rely on something bought from a bookshop.

 

[tiler burden]

5 day courses, apprenticeships, books, dvds, free help and advice, forums

there all good if they work and help you get from a-b. theres no definative way, its whatever works for you personally or whats available to you at the time. its all relative, its all non definable...

go with what you have, thats all anyone can do...

hope my 2 pence worth helps

ed

 

[GazTech]

Everyone deserves an opportunity,whatever it maybe.Some people may help them,some may rip them off,this is life.When starting out any venture especially work,people should study the pro's and con's and have the freedom of choice to go their own way.I actually heard of an experienced tiler who charged newbies good money to watch him and labour for him....he was of course strung up when caught ..I myself will always help the new breed of craftsmen,and encourage new blood from sitting in a computer chair for a living ...tiling is not only an art..it is also better than twice a week at some backwater gym....by the way Gymnasiums...RIP OFF BASTRDS....massive money when a free run will do.....Gaz

 

[Brio]

I for one have to agree with croc, Tiling is hardly rocket science. I also remember the days when Tiling was classed as semi skilled. & some other Trades also, like Scaffolding & Steel Fixing for example. Having worked in the Building Industry for nearly 40 yrs. Man & boy. I first started Tiling 20+yrs ago with no formal training. the contractor I worked for asked me to do some splash backs in the kitchens & bathrooms of the newbuild houses, which saved me from being rained off. Basic tools were a glass cutter & a pair of nipps. In that time I've developed my own modus operandi,(as we all do)& picked up many good tips from a lot of good tilers I've worked with over the years, & I have to say, I'm still learning. I too have serious doubts about how efective these short term courses are, not only Tiling, but Plumbing, Plastering,Bricklaying,etc. It would be interesting to hear from some people who've done these courses

 

[Kevan8919]

Brio, I'm a recent joiner to the tiling trade and you post a couple of interesting points. Your post indicates that you haven't been on any courses and your expertise has been gained from being around trained tilers who passed on information which you have presumably used over the years. The course I've been on covered the basics of tiling 1, Setting out, 2 measuring and cutting ( wet and dry) 3, grouting. We had a wall with sink, window, and two different waste outlets to tile and a floor with irregular sides.
I agree that it takes many years experience to be called a TILER, but without formal training of any kind and learning from a mentor I wonder how long it took you to be comfortable tiling a room without supervision?
After one weeks training I feel that I could tile a complete bathroom now and make a decent job of it, not like some of the obvious experts who subscribe to this forum, but certailnly of a good enough standard that I wouldn't be embarrassed taking someone's money doing it. If I hadn't done the training I wonder how long it would take me to learn by osmosis from a pro.

Kev

 

[Varley]

I for one have to agree with croc, Tiling is hardly rocket science. I also remember the days when Tiling was classed as semi skilled.

I first started Tiling 20+yrs ago with no formal training.

& I have to say, I'm still learning.

Little bit of a contradiction there Brio, you say tiling is not rocket science but yet 20 years down the line your still learning, what is taking you so long if it's not that complicated?

You said you would like to hear from someone who has done a short course, well here I am, what would you like to know mate and i'll be only too happy to respond.

 

[Brio]

Take it easy Varley old son, sorry if my comments ruffled afew feathers, yours or anyone elses. But Crocotile raised a few pointers that I thoroughly agree with, and I'm entitled to an opinion like anyone else,even tho' you don't agree with it.
Let me first of all deal with that caustic little barb you threw at me. No it was not "a little bit of a contradiction", and yes even after 20 odd yrs in the business. Unlike you, I'm still not too proud to say I'm still learning. Do you honestly regard yourself as being so good at what you do, that there is no more to learn? If you do, then you are saddly deluded, surely. EVEN A MASTER CAN LEARN FROM NOVICE!......
Allow me to clarify my point. I hold a C&G qualification in Bricklaying gained back in the 60s after a 5yr Apprenticeship. Back then, if a "Trade" was not preceded by a 5yr Apprenticeship, it was not regarded as a Trade. Any skilled job requiring anything less than 5yrs training was classed as Semi Skilled. And Tiling came under that category. I'm sorry but thats a fact. And for you to assume that you can impart Knowledge that I don't have, even tho' you don't know me or my circumstances, And all because you've done a short course, is nothing short of bare faced arrogance

 

[Varley]

Take it easy Varley old son, sorry if my comments ruffled afew feathers, yours or anyone elses. But Crocotile raised a few pointers that I thoroughly agree with, and I'm entitled to an opinion like anyone else,even tho' you don't agree with it.

AT no point in my post did I say that you were not in titled tyo an opinion mate, I was merely responding with my opinion which I am entitled to do.

Unlike you, I'm still not too proud to say I'm still learning. Do you honestly regard yourself as being so good at what you do, that there is no more to learn? If you do, then you are saddly deluded, surely. EVEN A MASTER CAN LEARN FROM NOVICE!......

If you could quote me from my post where I said I was too proud to say i'm still learning I would be eternaly greatful mate, if you can't, please don't put words in my mouth. At no point in any of my posts in this forum have I ever claimed to be too good to still learn, believe me I know i still have loads to learn in this field.
----

Allow me to clarify my point. I hold a C&G qualification in Bricklaying gained back in the 60s after a 5yr Apprenticeship. Back then, if a "Trade" was not preceded by a 5yr Apprenticeship, it was not regarded as a Trade. Any skilled job requiring anything less than 5yrs training was classed as Semi Skilled. And Tiling came under that category. I'm sorry but thats a fact. And for you to assume that you can impart Knowledge that I don't have, even tho' you don't know me or my circumstances, And all because you've done a short course, is nothing short of bare faced arrogance

At what point did I make this assumption Brio, you seem to have taken my post very personally I can assure you it was not meant to offend and I apologise if it did. In your post you wanted to hear from someone who had done a short course, I reponded and asked what you would like to know. I don't know what you have read into this, but by the tone of your post you have obviously read something into it. Again I ask you to quote me anywhere that I have suggested I have more knowledge in the subject than you.

I will ignore the 'bare faced arrogance' remark, please don't make your posts personal, keep them relevant to the discussion, this is not a forum for name calling!
----

I know a tiler with a service record of 35 years, his dad was a tiler so where going back a few years. Me and a mate were doing a subway and invited him to help, he said I've never done one. I was on a job and phoned him and ask him about a arch he'd never done one, so you can go thru years of work but certain jobs you may have never have touched. Never to old to learn

In my opinion the day you stop learning is the day you hang up your trowel.

 

[White Room]

I know a tiler with a service record of 35 years, his dad was a tiler so where going back a few years. Me and a mate were doing a subway and invited him to help, he said I've never done one. I was on a job and phoned him and ask him about a arch he'd never done one, so you can go thru years of work but certain jobs you may have never have touched. Never to old to learn

 

[Brio]

Rock on Whitebeam, exactly my sentiments.

 

[Dan]

So I think we all agree a book couldn't teach it you all, nor a tiling course. But I think you've got a much better chance getting into the trade if you do a course rather than read a book, i'd buy the book too if you enjoy reading or at least loan a couple from your local library.

 

[Fekin]

While I agree that tiling isn't rocket science too, I believe it is still quite a complicated trade to master as there is always new products and methods coming into the trade with the constant advancment in fixing materials and different weights and make up of tiles to learn, unlike "and this is a presumption" bricklaying.

 

[Brio]

Fair enough Varley, Please accept my appologies. Maybe I did read more into your post than I should have. Just that when you expressed surprize when I said I was still learning even after 20+yrs in the Tiling Trade, your intimation seemed to suggest that tho my knowledge of the Trade was still somewhat lacking,that you, after doing a short course, could supply that knowledge. If this was not the case, then again I appologise for getting a bit steamed up.

Most of the Tiling I do is On Site work. I seem to do more Tiling than Bricklaying these days. My old bones like it that way. its far better to be indoors Tiling this weather, than to be stood on a scaffold walling in an arctic gale freezing your spuds off.

These days to get on most sites you need a CSCS card, you just wont be allowed on without one. I got one just over a year ago, because it was getting increasingly difficult to get on site without one, and yes it states on my card that I'm a Wall&Floor Tiler, in order to gain that accreditation your skills have to be tested by the CITB-Construction Skills Board.

 

[White Room]

The touble is companys are pushing new materials to go on walls, where do you stop, it's getting more complicated. New adhesives, It's becoming a learning curve all the time.

 

[ChaseTiling]

These days to get on most sites you need a CSCS card, you just wont be allowed on without one. I got one just over a year ago, because it was getting increasingly difficult to get on site without one, and yes it states on my card that I'm a Wall&Floor Tiler, in order to gain that accreditation your skills have to be tested by the CITB-Construction Skills Board.

A sensible move forward 🙂

 

[ChaseTiling]

I wasn't knocking the concept of training centres, A good teacher teaching practically WITH the books as aids is the quickest and best (doesn't matter whether in a centre or on the job). The point is that centres and staff are not regulated in any way for quality or qualifications, anyone can set up (just as anyone can call themselves a pro tiler) The sooner we have regulated standards for both the sooner the customers get quality gauranteed.
I am also sure there are quality centres providing a superb service just as there are quality tilers, just not all of them and somehow we need a way of finding out which is which.

Just for the record here,

We are an accredited CITB / City & Guilds Centre.

To get that status, you need to have:

1. A City & Guilds Quality Assurance strategy in place
2. City & Guilds Learner Strategies in place
3. Regular checks from the CITB to ensure you are complying with policy
4. Each tutor with a teaching qualification
5. Each tutor trade qualified
6. Each tutor A1 assessor qualified
7. Strict checks on learner portfolio's before certification

We have all of the above 🙂

To find a centre that is strictly regulated to deliver ACCREDITED tiling training (City & Guilds), then click here:

[DLMURL]http://www.caalliance.co.uk/[/DLMURL]

 

[reaper72]

I know lots of guys who don't have papers but are good tilers because they have spent years working with time served tilers....books and courses do not come anywhere near hands on experience.........

Now correct me if I am wrong here;but I remember a rep from webber trying to get me to buy some gear from me,and showing me that they run a 2 day tiling course(I may be wrong-could have been 5 days)....what are you going to learn in 5 days? Seriously,it's guys like this clown who are taking lads money....letting them think that they are tilers,when they only have a very basic knowledge of tiling....and sadly it's unfortunate that these guys try to tackle a job out of their league and balls it up,and all they do is tarnish the reputation of the trade that is tiling......feel free to argue or agree..........:furious3:

 

[Dan]

Thanks for your input, you clearly feel strongly about it and have a view that you believe is good for the industry, which can only be a good thing and it's what we're all aiming for really.

I just think there has to be a bit of everything. I know some centres say you earn big bucks, and I know some centre's are short but I think its been proven time and time again that some of the tilers from short courses are really good ones, and not just the sort of person that is good at everything either.

I used to say, do a short course, do your own home, the your family, then a few friends, then you'll have found a few personal problems, as you would want to in a controlled environment. Then if you feel you need more training then give your centre a bell and even if you do the same course again at least this time you'll have lots of questions and a better understanding.

And at this point, if it wasn't for you, you'd know to back out of it, you can't charge for jobs that will fail, and you can't get much work if you have very little reputation or none at all. Even worse a bad one.

This is a fair valid entry point for a good tiler, and doing it this way he has a chance. Sometimes people can be hammered with too much information on a long course, others can and want to take that much in as they understand it a little better perhaps.

Others may want to go to college, and others with their old man or his mate.

The problem isn't any one of the above. It is the said 'trainee' tiler committing himself/herself into saying they are ready, and charging for poor work or feeling confident when you know there are actually some things you still don't know.

Short courses can only be knocked until you've seen the good guys work. The person going on the course are usually the type of person who doesn't want to mess around with getting the skills under their belt, they'll want a quick learning process, one that they can take on board one week (or more) and then practise over the next few, knowing they have support afterwards and extra help from such sites like these.

Again I say it is the type of person that just gets sucked in the the babble that will fail, and they can come from colleges and time served tiler teaching a guy type scenarios too, and that's a fair comment to I believe.

Trying to cut down on the amount of failed tiling jobs is the reason I feel so strongly about allowing and ensuring such discussions take place and the aim behind the forum really. And that would help a time served tiler, a college student, a short course tiler, a DIY'r.... they can all do bad and good work and the only way to improve it all is to research, train, practise, train, practise, commit and never stop learning really.

 

[Brio]

Cheers for that Reaper. Your post just helps to underline my original point, without trying to denigrate any other tilers, regardless of how they aquired their skills. my view is, if their earning a regular wage from the job, they must be doing something right. and therefore are well worthy of the title, PROFESSIONAL TILER.

 

[woodie]

i started with a short 3 day course with norcros and got myself in with taylor tiles where i worked with an experienced tiler who taught me all i neede to know(nice guy Pete) the course only cost 80 quid but it was worth it just to get the job with taylors....:yes:

 

[Dan]

Nice one woodie, well done mate. I too did a BAL wall course (never found time to do the floor one). Although at the time is was free to do, as it pushed their brand whilst providing the training.

 

[Varley]

Fair enough Varley, Please accept my appologies. Maybe I did read more into your post than I should have. Just that when you expressed surprize when I said I was still learning even after 20+yrs in the Tiling Trade, your intimation seemed to suggest that tho my knowledge of the Trade was still somewhat lacking,that you, after doing a short course, could supply that knowledge. If this was not the case, then again I appologise for getting a bit steamed up.

No probs at all Brio m8 and believe me, I was not suggesting that I could supply that knowledge, there is no one on this forum soaking up more information than me as each day goes by, be it through experience on the job or by coming on this forum and there is still so much that I haven't experienced yet.

I was happy with what I got out of my five day course, it was exactly what I was looking for, however, in my opinion, the best form of training is still the apprenticeship, if only I knew at the time that tiling was what I wanted to do then that would have been the route I would have took. However at the age of 27 with a wife, mortgage and a kid, apprenticeship is not an option.

 

[GazTech]

So I think we all agree a book couldn't teach it you all, nor a tiling course. But I think you've got a much better chance getting into the trade if you do a course rather than read a book, i'd buy the book too if you enjoy reading or at least loan a couple from your local library.

I remember a bloke on Grand designs ,who read a book for each project...he built a magnificent staircase..some people are just clever both academicaly,and practically...I fall into both catagories....I know...it's a burden........Gaz

 

[Dan]

I remember a bloke on Grand designs ,who read a book for each project...he built a magnificent staircase..some people are just clever both academicaly,and practically...I fall into both catagories....I know...it's a burden........Gaz

You charmer you. :8:

 

[Shuntstick]

I remember a bloke on Grand designs ,who read a book for each project...he built a magnificent staircase..some people are just clever both academicaly,and practically...I fall into both catagories....I know...it's a burden........Gaz

Did you mean Academically?
:thinking2:

 

[Dan]

I'm just bumping some of the tiling course & tiling training related threads. Ignore them if they're not current threads for you. They will drop back off the list in a week or so, and I don't do this much.