Tiling on a suspended floor

[Sukie666]

Doug, when they fixed a row of 8 tiles last month we only lost one tile - the one they had to crack. With the rest, the adhesive did NOT stick to the back of the tiles. No cleaning was required. The adhesive bearly stuck to the plywood either. I just used my hand to gently push it and it came unstuck. No tools required. I captured this on my phone if you would like a look. Did the adhesive dry too fast? We only gave it about a week before the ufh was turned on. The builders told me a couple of day was sufficient. I now know it should have been at least two weeks.

 

[doug boardley]

my mistake Sukie, if they'd been stuck down correctly, it would have been a beggar to clean them, I should've said:smilewinkgrin:

 

[mikethetile]

ive a feeling they used dispersion as they are obviously clueless when it comes to tiling:yikes:

 

[Ceramico tiling]

I dont know the correct way but what if you just strengthened the floor as best u can for vertical deflection,maybe with 18mm ply and then then another layer diagonally covering all joints of previous layer(screwed and pva).then ditra ontop.?

 

[Sukie666]

That was a consideration but with a wet ufh system, blindly screwing down the layers of plywood would be asking for trouble. If there was something I could use to glue cross ply that would be better.

 

[mikethetile]

no it wouldnt brace the floor, it would still deflect

 

[DHTiling]

Mike, thanks - i'll look into it. Will probably go with the retiling still as most of the tiles will be reuable and I like them. Have to see how we can best do this and if the builder will actually come back.

Dave - could you please recommend someone in the SW London area to do an inspection?

Many thanks
Sukie

Sorry just seen this.. will ask someone in your area to contact you.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Without seeing the results of the tiles that were refixed by your builder I would have to question the total load on your suspended floor. A central island with a large weight of worktop will have a considerable effect on the deflection issue. Did your builder or kitchen company supply you with the relevant weight and required support figures and was a structural surveyor consulted.
Although you certainly have a issue with the method of fixing and preparation for the tiling, retiling with additional support may not be a satisfactory answer to another problem.

 

[diamondtiling]

I dont know the correct way but what if you just strengthened the floor as best u can for vertical deflection,maybe with 18mm ply and then then another layer diagonally covering all joints of previous layer(screwed and pva).then ditra ontop.?

Dont use pva.

😳

 

[Sukie666]

Hi John, the kitchen company did not supply any calculations. I don't remember if they ask about the floor at all. They are a reputable company and delivered Imo a very good level of service so I have never questioned this. The builder who did the flooring was also used for removing a supporting wall to open up the kitchen into the dinning room. The island is basically where the supporting wall was before. A structural engineer did the calculation for the steel beam only. I wasn't aware nor informed by the builder that additional calculations were required. The builder also fitted the kitchen units.
What do you suggest I do now?
Thanks

 

[Scott]

Just read this from start to finish and must have missed this thread!

Dom, i think Russ is refering to using the PVA between the sheets of ply and not on the top

Sukie, if the joists are supported on brick piers under the floor and there is still vertical deflection then it may be possible to add in additional support between the piers and the joists to pack them up. Is there a large void under the floor? Typically houses of these era did have large voids so tt may be possible to access the underside of the floor from a different room? The noggins could also be added in this way.

TimelessJohns comments are valid point but there isnt a set requirement for any calculations for building regs for this, so no one has missed anything out. TJ is very good at seeing things from a different angle to a lot of us and when you think about it, it makes sense for it to have been taken into account. Although with a largge weight in the midle of the floor this should have cured some of the deflection to a certain degree. Sadly what that degree is i dont know

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Re reading the facts as printed it would seem as though the tiles have not stuck to the plywood. It could be due to the pva adhesive,the adhesive type, dust on floor/back of tile and certainly the dot and dab method of fixing. If it is only 18mm plywood fixed direct to the joists and tiled direct to this - as previously stated - a deflection issue may be the cause. Is there any cracks appearing at 120cm widths or just loose tiles and is the grout cracking out of the joints?
My earlier post was just concerned that the weight of the new kitchen/worktops had increased the movement in the floor and has the area of supported wall removal been adequately reinforced to hold the central island.
Following Daves advice I would certainly request a site visit by an experienced tiling contractor and he /she may be able to confirm some of the issues you may face.
Your builder -the main contractor- is the person with the answers so I'd ask him if he is a member of a Building Federation so you may be able to ask their advice:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Sukie666]

Scottey, better late than never!
The void is about 60-70cm off the ground only. What is considered adequate?

TJ - there are no cracks in the tiles. In many places, the grout has cracked or seem to be stuck to one side only. I DON'T ' think the grout (Mapei utracolor plus) was a flexible one so this is expected given flexing in the floor. In some area its whole groups of tiles together - in others 120-180cms width.

Looking at some pictures, it seems to me the tiles that have lifted the most have been where two sheets of plys meet. It seems to affect the whole row of tile. Tiles adjacent to these are less affected.

Thanks
Sukie

 

[Scott]

Thats plenty large enough to get under the floor, not the nicest place to be ill admit but if it gets the job done. As long as you have somewhere to get under it of course!

 

[grumpygrouter]

Scottey, better late than never!
The void is about 60-70cm off the ground only. What is considered adequate?

TJ - there are no cracks in the tiles. In many places, the grout has cracked or seem to be stuck to one side only. I DON'T ' think the grout (Mapei utracolor plus) was a flexible one so this is expected given flexing in the floor. In some area its whole groups of tiles together - in others 120-180cms width.

Looking at some pictures, it seems to me the tiles that have lifted the most have been where two sheets of plys meet. It seems to affect the whole row of tile. Tiles adjacent to these are less affected.

Thanks
Sukie

Ultracolor Plus is a highly flexible grout.

 

[Ceramico tiling]

I would be tempted to use mappei kerraquick mixed with mappei latex plus.Im not sure if it would be more efficient/flexible than Bal but it apparantly equals a mappei s2 adhesive.I think it will work out cheaper than BAL,

 

[Sukie666]

Guss & grumpygrouter thanks!

Guys, if my builder has public liability insurance (which he said he does), would my case be covered? Having heard all your advice, it really does seem that there is no easy way around this and will need to start from scratch. The tiling job was part of the kitchen renovation project but the UFH was done by a separate firm. To do it properly would mean redoing everything. Would the insurance cover the UFH replacement etc or just the tiling? Sorry - I am really quite clueless on these matters. I just want some ammo before I speak to the builder (if he picks up my calls) about this. How would I kick start this process as well?

Any advice & thoughts would be most appreciated.

many thanks
Sukie

 

[diamondtiling]

Guss & grumpygrouter thanks!

Guys, if my builder has public liability insurance (which he said he does), would my case be covered? Having heard all your advice, it really does seem that there is no easy way around this and will need to start from scratch. The tiling job was part of the kitchen renovation project but the UFH was done by a separate firm. To do it properly would mean redoing everything. Would the insurance cover the UFH replacement etc or just the tiling? Sorry - I am really quite clueless on these matters. I just want some ammo before I speak to the builder (if he picks up my calls) about this. How would I kick start this process as well?

Any advice & thoughts would be most appreciated.

many thanks
Sukie

I am not sure if admin can publish Pm's Sukie but it would help if our conversations were made available, you have gone into great detail whilst talking with me, If the forum could read these then I am sure they would comment correctly.

 

[Sukie666]

Not sure how to do that - but all the details are on the thread anyway.

 

[doug boardley]

public liability doesn't cover shoddy workmanship Sukie.

 

[Sukie666]

Thought as much. Can't see the insurer paying for my replacement ufh. Back to the drawing board.

 

[Deleted member 9966]

Sukie

Your builder/tradespeople have ballsed up. It's up to them to cough up to put it all right in my opinion. If meaning the whole thing has to be done from scratch, then that's the builders hard luck and he/she/they should have to cover all the costs.

Have you had anybody round to do an independent report yet?

GRR

 

[Sukie666]

I don't have any contacts yet, but to be honest I was rather put off when I heard it would cost around £1200. I understand that the report would help with any claims (in court I guess) against the builder. However, I'm hoping it won't come to that. I have found a tiler from the Tile Association site who was quite helpful. If he is willing, I will probably get him in when the tiles are to be lifted by the builder and let him assess and advice on the remedy then. I want the builders to do the work because it shouldn't cost me, but for him to oversee it which hopefully won't be too expensive. Does that sound reasonable?

many thanks
Sukie

 

[mikethetile]

before spending £1200 for a report I would get a price off here, same with the tiling

im not sure you should have the builder back to redo it as he has already proven his lack of knowledge and skill

your best plan is to get him to pay for someone of your choosing to correct his work

 

[Sukie666]

Mike - I would love to do that. If only I knew how to get them to cough up. Getting them to pick up my calls is hard enough. What do builders fear most? How do I get them to take this seriously? I know there are load of sites for recommending builders/tradesmen - what about those that warn against them?

thanks
Sukie

 

[doug boardley]

Mike - I would love to do that. If only I knew how to get them to cough up. Getting them to pick up my calls is hard enough. What do builders fear most? How do I get them to take this seriously? I know there are load of sites for recommending builders/tradesmen - what about those that warn against them?

thanks
Sukie

try calling from somebody else's phone Sukie, the builder probably has caller ID and ignores it when your number appears on his screen

 

[mikethetile]

A good tradesman doesnt need to pay £45 a quarter and £20 a lead to get work. the bulders you need generate their own leads through word of mouth and come personally reccomended


this is the route you need to take, if you look through the albums here you will see examples of tilers work and know what you can expect from them

what do builders fear most ? legal action, court judgements against them make life difficult as a lot of people do a credit check and court search before doing business with someone, if they get too many actions against them trading standards can have them prosecuted and prevented from trading

 

[Deleted member 9966]

Sukie

If the builders are not responding to your calls, try one last time from another number or payphone if you have to. If they still won't talk to you about the problems you're now left with following their installations, then go and see a solicitor and start legal proceedings. If they receive a solicitors letter warning that further action may be taken against them if they don't sort it out, it might just be enough to get them to sort it out.

There are several members on here in the London area who will be able to come round and assess the work that has been done in order to get an independent report done. You'll need it if you go down the legal route anyway.

No more dilly dallying. Time is of the essence and you need to crack on. Start keeping a diary of all the times you've called them, conversations you've managed to have etc. it should help you and your solicitor keep track of what has been discussed so far.

It's not nice to have to do this, but your kitchen needs to be an acceptable standard to live in, and right now, it's not.

Hope this helps
Liz

 

[Scott]

Citizens advice could be worthwhile and its free. They have more clout than peole think. If not then Trading standards.

Any sign of any pics?

 

[Sukie666]

All,
Thank you very much for your advice. It's reassuring to know that there is help out there to get through this nightmare. We have agreed for our next review of the situation to be on the 2nd Aug. I will get a pro/one of your member in as well and update the forum.

Here are some pics extracted from video clips. They don't really show the gravity of the problem but it gives you an idea. The white adhesive is the original. The grey is their first attempt to fix 2 two tiles back in April. And yes, I could remove the adhesive just by pushing it with my fingers - no tools required.


Sukie.

 

[SandyFloor]

Hold on tight.....you're about to be besieged with posts expressing complete horror. That's not just shoddy, it's incompetence at it's extreme.