Discuss Tiling a screeded floor... in the UK Tiling Forum area at TilersForums. The USA and UK Tiling Forum (Also now Aus, Canada, ROI, and more)

R

Rich

Hello all,
I wanted to put up a post on here giving some info for someone wit little or no tiling experience. Im hoping that some of the other trusted advisors will feel free to add anything they like so that as many different angles are covered. If this post goes down well then Il add some more, wilt different installations at a later date. Id like everybody to bare in mind that there are many ways of doing these thing, this is how I do them and it works for me.

For this post Im going to go through step by step, how to tile a simple screeded floor. We will imagine that it is just a new sand and cement screed, 4500x450mm cereamic tiles, square room, no underfloor/tile heating. About as basic as it gets.

Choosing a tile
Not all tiles are suitable for every situation. When choosing a tile there are 2 main things to consider, aesthetics and suitability. Aethetics is purely down to personal preference, but it may help to know that dark tiles appresr to pull the walls in, making the room look smaller while white or lighter tiles do the oppisite and make a room look bigger. Suitability is very important, there are many types of tile all with different characteristics and properties.

Ceramic tiles
Ceramic tiles come in many different sizes and colours but also different grades. They are graded from 1 to 5 according to their strength, 5 being the hardest and most suitable to take foot traffic and 1 not being suitable for floors.

Porcelain
Porcelain tiles are made in the same way as ceramic tiles but are fired at higher temperatures for longer periods of time, making them vbery strong and good for floors.

Stone
There are far to many different types of stone to list here. Natural stone tends to be much softer than other tiles. Stone requires more care and maintenance as well as a lot of care when being laid.

For my imaginary floor we are going to use 450x 450mm ceramic tiles with grey grout.

Adhesive and grout
For this installation you will need a single part cement based adhesive. I use Mapei products so I would use Mapei Rapid-Set. If you are not confident with using a rapid setting adhesive then there are plaenty of standard setting 1s out there that are just as good. Although many manufacturers sell ready mixed adhesive for floors, my advice would be to stay well away from it and stick to powder adhesive.
The colour of the adhesive should be the same or similar to the coulour of the grout that you will be using. For this installation we will imagine that wer using Mapei Ultracolor in cement grey and grey adhesive.
It is also a good idea to prime the floor before tiling (but never with PVA), for this Id use Mapei Primer G.

Preparing the substrate
The screed must be left to dry completely before being tiled, this is usally a min of 3 weeks but depends on the thickness of the screed, type of mix and the atmosphere.
When I look at a screed that is to be tiled for the first time, I lay a long spirt level on the floor. This will give me a good idea of how level and flat the floor is. If you lay a 2M straight edge on the floor and there are gaps between the floor and the straight edge of more than around 5mm, you will need to make sure the floor is flat before tiling. Then I run a floor scraper over the entire floor to remove any little bits of cement that are sticking up. I also remove any lumps and bumps in the screed before I start. After the floor has been scrapped, you will need to sweep as much of the dust out as possible. It is important to remove all dust from the floor before you begin tiling because dust on the floor will stop the adhesive bonding to the substrate. After sweeping the room it is a good idea to use a vacuum cleaner to get rid of the last of the dust.
Now that the room is free of dust, you are ready to prime the floor. Mapei Primer G needs to diluted with clean water before being applied, always read the directions of use on any of the products you use as they are all slightly different. The primer is applied to the floor using a roller or a clean paint brush. Make sure you cover the entire floor as evenly as possible. Mapei Primer G should be left to dry for min 2 hours but again alays check the lable.

Setting out
This is a hard one to go through without the use of pics. There are so many ways of setting out I can only give you the way I do it.

It is very important to take the time to set your floor out before you start to tile so that you know what size cuts you will have and you can make the tiling look as good as possible. A good tiling job can be ruined by a poor lay out.
Before you start with the setting out of the floor it is important to know if the walls are square. If the walls are a long way out, I tend to try to tile square with the door way. Bare in mind that if the walls are out of square to your floor tiles, it will be less noticable if you have a larger cut running along the wall that is out. Spend a bit of time measuring the room up, it will save you a lot of hassle later on.
If you can, try to centralise your tiles so that you end up with the same sized cuts at each end of the room. You can use a tape measure and mark out on the floor where each of your tiles are going to come to, or you can can use a piece of batten with the size of the tiles marked along its length or if you can lay tiles out along your floor. However you do it, take the time to get it just right.
When you have decided where you are going to start, mark a line on the floor. I draw a straigh, square line that will coinside with the grout joint one tile in from the wall (we will call this line 1). Then I would draw a second line at 90 degrees to line 1, again to coinside with the grout joint, one tile in from other wall. You should be left with two square, straight lines that cross. where the lines cross is going to be where you lay your first tile. It is worth checking that these lines are square and true at this point.
Note: Make sure you start tiling in a place where you can tile backwards towards a door.

Beginning tiling
Now that you have your starting line and a square line to keep your tiles square, you are ready to start tiling.
Read the directions of use on the bag of adhesive and mix with clean water in a clean bucket to the ratios recommended on the bag.Sweep the area you are about to tile. Next dump a small amount of the adhesive on the floor where you are going to start tiling (where line 1 and 2 meet) being careful not to cover your line. Spread theadhesive out ft the flat side of your trwoel and then using the notched side to give an even adhesive bed. I would use a 10mm rounded notched trowel. Spread the adhesive one tile wie along line 1 and right up to line 2. Then take your first tile and skim some adhesive onto the back of the tile using the back edge of your trowel, then place the tile down into the adhesivebed where the two lines meet. Press the tle down intothe adhesive using a twistin action and line the tile up so that is is sitting squarly on line 1 and 2. It is a good idea to place a level on each tile in two different directions as well as over each course as any alterations need to be made while the adhesive isstill wet.
Once your first tile is pressed down, level and square, the rest of the tiles in this cours can be laid in the same way as the first. When all the full tiles are down in your first coarse (we will leave the cuts for later), lay a long straight edge along line 1 and push your tiles up against it to make sure they are straight. As you lay each til, insert 2 tile spaceres in to each joint (not into he corners, into the joint itself). Once the first coarse is down, take the time to make sure that it is square and level.
Besure to wash any adhesive off the face of the tiles and from in the joints, it is much easier to wash off now then once it has set.
Now h you can lay the rest of the floor in the same way. Leave the cuts round the edges until all the full tiles are fixed but make sure that you clean up any adhesive off the floor where you will be tiling later. Sweep eacch section of floor off before you spread the adhesive to remove any dust and grit. Continue laying the tiles in this way until all the full tiles are fixed.
You must leave the floor to set totally before returning for the cuts, how long will depend on the adhesive so check on the bag.
Once the full tiles are set, you can walk on them to remove the tile spaceres and begin cutting in the perimeter tiles. Most cuts will be done with a manual cutter but any right angle cuts will have to be done on a wet saw or angle grinder. It is best to cut all of the erimeter tiles before mixing up morer adhesive, this way you can take your time without the adhesive setting in the bucket. Mark and cut each tile, leaving as gap bewenn the tile and the wall of 5-10mm if there is going to be skirting boards put in over the tiles or a gap of 2mm if it is going to be a finished edge.
Once all the cuts have been made, you can mix up some more adhesive and lay the cut tiles in the same way as the tiles, using tiles spacers and washing off any adhesive befor it sets.
Once all the tiles are down and the adhesive is set, tyou are ready to grout.
 
R

Rich

Thank you guys.
I didnt go into the grouting as I put a post up last week going into detail about it. Might see if Dave can attach it onto this post. Anybody tell me if that can be done?



Grouting
Although grouting is not a particularly difficult job, it does take time, a bit of skill and some patience. Its worth the effort as a sloppy grout job can ruin the appearence of an otherwise commendable tile installation.

Readying the tiles for grouting
Remove any spacers. The manufacturers of some spacers state that they can be left in the joints and covered with grout but the thinner layer of grout above the spacers will cure a different colour, the ghosting will mar the appearance of the grout. The surface and egdes of the tiles must be clean, wash the tiles down with clean water and a clean sponge but dont over do it. Puddles of water left on the tile or in the joints will ruin the grout. Alway check directions of use with the grout manufacturer.

Mixing grout
Regular grout can be mixed either with water or with liquid additives as a replacement for water; dry-polymer grouts must be mixed with water only. Whatever liquid you use, do not add to much as to much liquid will weaken the grout (always follow proportioning ratios found on the container). The mixing bucket should be clean and if the grout is being mixed with water it should be completely clean. Mix the grout by gradually adding the grout into the liquid. Check the grouts consistency with each addition. Use a hand trowel or a power mixing paddle to mix the grout. If you use a paddle, make sure to keep it submerged to prevent air being whipped into the grout and weakening it. Keep the paddle speed low, below 300 rpm to reduce air in the mix. After the grout is mixed initially and most of the lumps have been eliminated, let the grout rest for a few minutes. This allows the dry ingredients, in perticular those in clumps, to be thoughly wetted by the liquid. Then re-stir to get the last of the lumps out.
If you are mixing several batches of grout,make sure they are all identical. Not only should the proportions of the ingredients be the same from batch to batch, but also the order in which the ingredients are combined.

Applying grout
When your ready to start grouting, dump a small pile of grout onto the tile surface. To spread the grout use a grout trowel. Hold it at an angle of about 30 degrees to the tile. Grout over the entire area you are working two or three times, not just dabbing the grout into the joints but pushing and pressing it between the tiles so that you feel resistance as each joint is packed. The idea is to cram grout into every nooks at the tiles edge. The process also forces some of the liquid out of the grout, so that the joint are as fully packed as possible with sand and cement particals- a solid rather than a slurry with suspended particals of cement and sand.

Rather than grouting an entire installation all at once, spread only a small section first, until you see how quickly the grout sets. This way, if you are working with a grout that sets fast you wont get ahead of yourself and end up with a tough cleaning job.

Removing excess grout
When all the joints are filled, hold the trowel at almost a right angle to the surface of the tile and cut the excess grout off the surface. As you do this make sure to move the trowel diagonally across the joints to prevent the tools edge from dipping into the joints and raking grout out (if this does happen, simply refill the divot with fresh grout). Once thr excess has been removed, let the grout set slightly before you start cleaning.

Cleaning and finishing grout joints
After the dry cleaning with the edge of the grout trowel, the tiles will need wet cleaning. The time grout needs to set up before this point varies from job to job.
Keep in mind that the grout residue on the surface of the tile can harden fairly quickly, whereas the grout in the joints may take considerably more time.
Wring out as much moisture from your sponge as possible and then test a small area by sponging the surface of the tile. The grout in the joints should be resillient and firm but not hard. If the grout has set up to much, the tiles will need to be scrubbed heavily, which can disfigure the joints. On the other hand if the sponge pulls grout out of the joints then the grout has not set sufficiently. Wait a few minutes and test again. When the grout in the joints is not easily disturbed, clean up can begin.
If you have left the grout to long then scrub the surface of the tiles with a Scotch-Brite pad (unlike some other scouring pads, this pad shouldnt sctrach the surface of the tiles). After scrubbing, go over the entire area with a thoroughly wrung out sponge.

Starting the clean up
You will only need a clean sponge and a clean bucket of water. Work in small sections at a time, rinsing the sponge out every other tile or so to wash out the grout particals in the sponge. When rinsing the sponge, always wring as much water out as possible, ensure that the loose grout particals are flushed from the pores of the sponge. it is how you use the sponge the will determine how well the tiles are cleaned. once you have given the entire area a wash off, change the water in the bucket for fresh clean water while the grout residue on the surface of the tile starts to dry. The first wash off removes most of the excess grout off of the face of the tile, the second wash off will remove most of the grout residue left from the first wash as well as neatening the joints. Once you have washed off the tiles a secont time (or even 3 times, depending on how well you washed the tiles) the area should be left briefly so that the grout can hrden in the joints. Then any remaining grout haze can be wiped off with a clean soft cloth.
 
R

Rich

Very helpful mate that helpful I printed it out to go in my folder.

Thank you :thumbsup::thumbsup:



Im glad that it is some help mike. There will be more to follow that one, looking at different installations. Might do tiling onto a timber floor next... But Im open to suggestions.

Dave, thank you very much again. You make it look like I know what Im doing. :thumbsup:
 

Ajax123

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Only thinkg I will add is that there seems to be no such thing as the simple screed floor anymore. Floor screeding used to be pretty low tech. Juat a layer of material placed to flatten an otherwise uneven concrete slab.

Nowadays there are dozens of options and dozens of functions from underfloor heating media, sound proofing, thermal mass systems, underfloor cooling, anhydrite, hemi hydrate, sand cement, modified sand cement, self smoothing screeds, screed which need further smoothing, low shrink screeds, thin screeds, thick screeds, lightweiagh screeds, heavyweight screeds, floating screeds, bonded screeds, partially bonded screeds, unbonded screeds, eco screeds,.........the list goes on.

Whgat was a humble floor screed is these days an integral part of a construciton design and encompasses all sorts of technologies. People (like myself) have to become "experts" in all sorts of fields including flooring, adhesive technology, moisture testing, material technology, chemistry etc etc etc etc.........this is so we can try to help other trades, contractors architects etc avoid the many issues and ptfalls they can encounter when a screed is designed or used incorrectly. Poor flor screed design costs the UK construction industry millions pounds a year. Most of these are indirectly experienced by the floor layers, tilers, underfloor heating contractors, mechanical and electrical contractors, main contractors, builders, adhesive manufacturers, primer manufacturers......

Perhaps there should be a forum dedicated to floor screeding. It is anything but simple.....:incazzato:

End of rant :yikes:

Sorry - other than that it was a great thread. :hurray:
 

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