lafarge low laitance screed,tiling with 600x600 polished porcelain

[Spud]

Dean reading this thread I am alarmed, how can you put your name to a job where someone else is doing the prep work and you are being forced to use an adhesive that you havent used before and are unfamilar with? you need to put your foot down and do the job the correct way with the correct materials and prep or walk away as all you will be doing is asking for trouble

 

[deankyall]

i mean the rep,not the builder

 

[deankyall]

Dean reading this thread I am alarmed, how can you put your name to a job where someone else is doing the prep work and you are being forced to use an adhesive that you havent used before and are unfamilar with? you need to put your foot down and do the job the correct way with the correct materials and prep or walk away as all you will be doing is asking for trouble

really,you would walk away,!! the way i see it is its a low latence screed,the builder is going to hire the correct sander,it only has to be lightly sanded to give it a key and remove light layer of latence,this will be inspected by the kerakoll rep,he will do a carbide bomb test,then only when he says its correct,and ready,and i mean prep too, will i tile it,i use kerakoll adhesives all the time ,just not this one ,if you have done one of these floors ,then there must have been a time when you used an adhesive ,ie gypfix that you hadnt used before?

In europe kerakoll is a major supplier of this adhesive for use on these screeds,we cant just walk away from all these jobs,how do we earn a living??of course i wont do it if it isnt prepped correctly,thats why ive got the rep involved,what more can i do?

 

[deankyall]

i will check these out and put it too them next week

I can only say what I was told.
Kerakoll hasn't done themselves any favours by the way they have treated their customers. A quick search on here will throw up a few stories, one of which was our very own Dave.

 

[Spud]

good luck Dean it sounds like you have decided to put all your faith in a sales rep

 

[deankyall]

good luck Dean it sounds like you have decided to put all your faith in a sales rep

cant see the logic there,when you buy any adhesive your faith is in that company, wether it be bal,mapei,who by the way told me a completely incorrect way,as i discussed with ajax 123,my faith is in myself to do a good job and for a major company to supply a decent product that is up to the job,ok lets say you were doing the job ,tell me what your methods would be,just for example i met natasha the local nicobond rep this week ,so if i use their product am i not putting faith in her too??,whats the difference,we have to use something to stick the tiles to the floor,we have a major company making an adhesive that they say sticks to anhydrate sceeds, as do mapei say the same thing with a primer,which one depends on who you speak to!! same as bal ,same as weber, .....

 

[deankyall]

just another one ,the guy who supplied the screed,has tiled his place and used kerakoll,which is why the customer was wanting it,and had no problems, would your reluctance be with the adhesive or the prep???

 

[deankyall]

right just ran through a thread ,where ajax 123 said h40 ideal has been used on anhydrate with no probs,so i will call him tomorrow to discuss.

 

[Spud]

Dean I am not picking an arguement with you just hoping that you dont end up costing yourself a lot of money
I havent tiled a low latence screed but i have tiled hundreds of gypsum screeds when working in Germany over there the screeding company is responsible for sanding off the laitence not the tiler the floors were primed by the tilers with acrylic primer and traditional sand and cement screeds were used in wet areas
I suffered large losses from matting failures so I guess that taking advice from sales reps doesnt give me much faith and given there are several tilers on this forum that have used the kerakol and have had issues with it on flow screeds that is enough for me to say no thank you get some one else to do it
so to answer your question on how would i deal with your job i would prep the floor by using a wire brushes attached to to drive board of my 17inch buffing machine ,I would get the floor moisture tested prior to starting and i would use a gypsum based adhesive , i would insist on using expansion joints as cold expansion joints " Silicon joints "do not comply with b.s for heated screeds , if the customer didnt agree to my spec then how can i do the job and give a guarantee ,i would have to decline it

 

[DHTiling]

Just to say, you do not prime with H40, but it does dry by dispersion. I had a failure with said adhesive and got zero back up from kerkoll.

 

[Spud]

just like to add I am not knocking kerakol adhesive I have used the tenaflex on swimming pools and mosaics its very nice adhesive

 

[deankyall]

how far did you take it dave ,what im saying is if i follow every step they recommend,let them carbide bomb test the adhesive and check the prep,and it still goes wrong ,then surely i or the builder would be able to take legal action ,or they should at least compensate people??,was your issue the one with the dietra matting ,or did you have any more issues,as i have read a thread where you praise ,the rep ,i think his name was bill,rep also said its not a dispersion adhesive,im seeing him next tuesday,what questions would you put to him

Just to say, you do not prime with H40, but it does dry by dispersion. I had a failure with said adhesive and got zero back up from kerkoll.

 

[deankyall]

apart from the adhesive,everything else willl be done this way,i can still switch to gypfix ,its not set in stone ,its just that the customer and i have had various conversations with the rep,who seems to know what hes on about,used to ne tiler apparently,!! but he is not making any money from us personally as we are buying from a local supplier who import direct from italy,so he has no motivation just to get the sale,also when i met the rep from nicobond ,i was promised a sample to try ,never actually bought one ,and then said one would be sent ,never turned up,so how can i recommend without trying,im getting a bag of kerrakol on tuesday,so can try,also ajax 123 has stated hes seen no problems at all with h40 ideal apart from one that was tiled on wet screed

Dean I am not picking an arguement with you just hoping that you dont end up costing yourself a lot of money
I havent tiled a low latence screed but i have tiled hundreds of gypsum screeds when working in Germany over there the screeding company is responsible for sanding off the laitence not the tiler the floors were primed by the tilers with acrylic primer and traditional sand and cement screeds were used in wet areas
I suffered large losses from matting failures so I guess that taking advice from sales reps doesnt give me much faith and given there are several tilers on this forum that have used the kerakol and have had issues with it on flow screeds that is enough for me to say no thank you get some one else to do it
so to answer your question on how would i deal with your job i would prep the floor by using a wire brushes attached to to drive board of my 17inch buffing machine ,I would get the floor moisture tested prior to starting and i would use a gypsum based adhesive , i would insist on using expansion joints as cold expansion joints " Silicon joints "do not comply with b.s for heated screeds , if the customer didnt agree to my spec then how can i do the job and give a guarantee ,i would have to decline it

 

[deankyall]

just thought id post this from sir ramic and ajax 123 from another post:smilewinkgrin: hope they dont mind....

Realistically though you could say that about any adhesive. In fact most tilers use standard portland cement adhesives and these are clearly a potential issue. I kerakoll are confident enough to say it then fair enough. Bear in mind of course that at least they have a track record and they are a large company so can back up any issues they have both financially and tecnically.

Fully understand what you are saying, when i spoke to the rep he filled me in on the background of Kerakoll as a business and very interesting it was. What i mean about testing it is how would i know it was up to what they say or not ? Obviously if i had a failure then its not but if it works then how long do you wait too say its a success ?
For me i would put faith in them and try it.

 

[DHTiling]

It was with Dural CI. Was told it was suitable. I then found out it did not set hydrolically hence priming to consolidate the surface and then the use of Dural , left no where for moisture to go. I then spoke to bill and this is where I received no further response from them, basically I was left to get on with it.

Gypsum friendly H40. Only because it contains very little cement that can react with gypsum.

The product might well work on a unprimed surface but IMO never again will I have anything to do with them.

At the end of the day, follow to the T what they say and keep your fingers crossed.

 

[Ajax123]

is there a way i could contact him,then i could maybe get the customer info from the horses mouth

My mobile number 07545932723.

 

[deankyall]

hi alan ill call you in morning regarding kerakoll,and any issues with it,i have kept your no from last time

My mobile number 07545932723.

 

[deankyall]

i can understand that,and why it didnt dry,but as they are a major supplier with my local wholesalers now,i feel id have at least a few avenues ,have you used gypfix?is it like a normal addy ,i have so much work to do on these screeds got to be sure

It was with Dural CI. Was told it was suitable. I then found out it did not set hydrolically hence priming to consolidate the surface and then the use of Dural , left no where for moisture to go. I then spoke to bill and this is where I received no further response from them, basically I was left to get on with it.

Gypsum friendly H40. Only because it contains very little cement that can react with gypsum.

The product might well work on a unprimed surface but IMO never again will I have anything to do with them.

At the end of the day, follow to the T what they say and keep your fingers crossed.

 

[Ajax123]

[DLMURL]http://www.gyvlon.co.uk/2011-11-November.pdf[/DLMURL]

This might be useful....... Course it ight not either

 

[Spud]

I was in nicobond today and had a look at the gypfix it has the gyvlon logo on the bag

 

[Gazzer]

how far did you take it dave ,what im saying is if i follow every step they recommend,let them carbide bomb test the adhesive and check the prep,and it still goes wrong ,then surely i or the builder would be able to take legal action ,or they should at least compensate people??,was your issue the one with the dietra matting ,or did you have any more issues,as i have read a thread where you praise ,the rep ,i think his name was bill,rep also said its not a dispersion adhesive,im seeing him next tuesday,what questions would you put to him

I think you will find its the screed they test !!

 

[ian158]

what is a low laitance floor ?

 

[Ajax123]

what is a low laitance floor ?

When you make a flowing self compacting screed or concrete as it compacts the water which is inthe material bleeds to the surface of the material. This bleed water brings with it some of the finer and lighter particles in the mix e.g silt, lime etc.... As the water evaporates this lighter. Material settles on the surface of the screed. This forms a friable laitance. Or skin......there is a thread some while ago which has a pic of wha this looks like but it is basically not part of the screed and so needs to be removed by sanding at an early stage of the screeds life. This sanding was found to be abused , ignored, missed, and was the cause of many tiling failures in the past. Some of the screed suppliers in recent years have acknowledged this problem and now put some special additives in the screed. One of these is a flocculating agent which binds the lighter particles together into bigger heavier particles which do not so readily float. Hence very little soft friable skin appears on the surface of the screed. It would be nice to say these are laitance free or no laitance but as there is ALWAYS laitance on the surface of ANY screed or concrete we cannot refer to it as such so we call i low laitance instead.

These screeds do not generally need to be sanded to remove laitance so the screeders job should be finished at the point the installation is complete. However it is essential to remember that all screeds and concretes need to be suitably prepared to receive floor coverings and this includes removal of any construction detritus or debris. The easiest way to do this is to sand the screed.


In easy terms the low laitance screeds should net need sanding to remove laitance but may need sanding for other reasons.

 

[Ajax123]

It is impoant to remember though that not all gyvlon screeds are low laitance as oth the low laitance and the classic versions are available. There are quite a few others now as well incluing gyvlon XTR, gyvlon soundbar etc etc.

Rember when you are asked to tile a screed...... Ask what type of screed it is.

 

[deankyall]

Sorry that's a mistype,that's what I meant

 

[deankyall]

sorry was a mistype,i did mean the screed.brain frazzle

I think you will find its the screed they test !!

 

[deankyall]

would like to thank everyone for their input,in particular ajax123,for his knowledge and willingness to share it,i shall be putting my customers in contact ,so they can hear it from the horses mouth so to speak,thanks alan.

also on another subject got my account approval from nicobond today,good prices,have used them before with no probs and they deliver next day to site,anyone tried their plastic ply?i did once with excellent results on chipboard floor,marble,no comebacks,2 years ago.