Tile moving and grout breaking

[procastinator]

Hi fellow forum dwellers, am a distraught customer looking for some advice.

We did an extension and got water pipe UFH installed throughout the ground floor close to 100sqm. The WFH was left to dry for 4 weeks before the tiling was commissioned. We purchased glazed porcelain tiles from TilePlus in Oldbury. The store were made aware about the UFH. The tiler was a recommendation and we had seen their work. The work that I saw was on a standard floor (no UFH). The tiling was done in July and no care was taken to ensure no one walked on the tiles before the tiler said so. We moved into the house in first week August. The tiles felt good to walk on. Once the cold started kicking in (around Oct/Nov), we followed the instructions provided to start the UFH and increase the temp by 1 degree.

In Nov I started noticing the grout broke but ignored it as it was just the one tile. As the months went by the grout came off from other places. Noticed tiles making noise as I walked over them. Started with a couple and now I have a floor of tiles that are making noises at various places. Called the tiler and the store to let them know about the issue. The store have passed on my details to the company that manufacture the adhesive (Palace Chemicals). Currently waiting for them to call me.

The tiler got defensive and is blaming the adhesive and UFH material. I am afraid that he is going to shrug any responsibility on this. I did pay cash (some via bank transfers) so don't have a VAT invoice of the work before anyone asks.

Where do I go from here? Any pointers will be appreciated.

 

[Anthony]

What type of screed was it? Did the tiler ask you? I’ve just chopped up a floor on top of ufh,yet again

 

[Anthony]

It sounds like a poorly prepared calcium screed. Sorry this page is jumping all over the place

 

[procastinator]

Hey @Anthony thanks for the reply. Am trying to find out the details of the screed. I had it written down but changed phones so lost some of the messages. The tiler, the supply company all were made aware multiple times of the UFH system.

 

[Anthony]

This is on water fed ufh. This was done 2 years ago by someone else, if the floor is not sanded,and primed twice the tiles will eventually de-bond,this still happens regardless of ufh.

 

[TKD Tiling]

There are multiple reasons why this could happen, I don’t think you’ll find the answer on here.

 

[procastinator]

Hi @Anthony I suspect that to be the case. I am so stressed. All that money for tiles and tiling down the drain. Everyone will get defensive and pass the blame to the next person.

 

[procastinator]

There are multiple reasons why this could happen, I don’t think you’ll find the answer on here.

Thanks for the input. I was hoping to know common causes from peoples experiences.

 

[MrKnowItAll]

Hi, Lots of possibilities, but with a bit of investigation, solvable...if you lift several tiles and the screed is cracked, then its the mix of the screed thats caused the unbonding...What was the room temperature when the tiles were fixed, hopefully above 5 degrees C the whole time, otherwise the adhesive wont bond... depending on type of screed, was it prepared/primed properly?..depending on size of floor, are there expansion strips in the appropriate places...Are there expansion gaps around the edges?..Possible adhesive mfg problem, but for the adhesive and grout to both unbond would be unusual..That is pretty much all I got.. Good luck...

 

[MrKnowItAll]

Oh and maybe dust on the backs of the tiles...Adhesive doent stick well to dust/dirt

 

[Tiler Bristol]

Preparation hasn't been done correctly for whatever reason but it can be investigated and solved. This looks like a good read if you haven't seen it Do Tiles Crack With Underfloor Heating? - besthomeheating.com - https://besthomeheating.com/tiles-crack-underfloor-heating/?utm_content=cmp-true

 

[MrKnowItAll]

Assuming the adhesive and grout used was suitable, ie. Flexible!

 

[procastinator]

@Anthony and @MrKnowItAll - So the floor that was put down was anhydrite gvylon liquid screed floor.
My suspicion is that the tiler didn't apply a primer to the floor before putting down the tiles.
Leaves me with 100sqm of f*ck up. And the tiler won't admit his mistake. He will say I didn't supply him with the primer.

The grout and adhesive used was suggested by TilePlus was a Palace Chemicals standard stuff. They aren't accepting that wrong advice was given when they were told what sort of floor it was being tiled on.

 

[Alex121212]

It sounds like a poorly prepared calcium screed. Sorry this page is jumping all over the place

Yep, I’m getting it jumping all over the place too.
Makes reading more than 1 comment almost impossible … not a great 1st impression of the site …

 

[Alex121212]

@Anthony and @MrKnowItAll - So the floor that was put down was anhydrite gvylon liquid screed floor.
My suspicion is that the tiler didn't apply a primer to the floor before putting down the tiles.
Leaves me with 100sqm of f*ck up. And the tiler won't admit his mistake. He will say I didn't supply him with the primer.

The grout and adhesive used was suggested by TilePlus was a Palace Chemicals standard stuff. They aren't accepting that wrong advice was given when they were told what sort of floor it was being tiled on.

Was everything else supplied to the tiler? I.e. adhesive, tiles, grout, silicone etc … was the tiler asked to supply anything himself?

 

[procastinator]

Was everything else supplied to the tiler? I.e. adhesive, tiles, grout, silicone etc … was the tiler asked to supply anything himself?

Hi Alex, everything was supplied to the tiler. We did ask him if he needed anything else given the information about the floor. He didn't think a primer was required.

 

[Alex121212]

Hi Alex, everything was supplied to the tiler. We did ask him if he needed anything else given the information about the floor. He didn't think a primer was required.

Sorry, sounds like you might be right … no idea why you wouldn’t want to put a primer down on a new surface like that … bound to be some sort of residue / powder somewhere as it’s dried & for the time it takes to apply a primer, even with a brush, it’s not worth the potential impact of not doing … but if you didn’t provide it, that’s what he might say, but then you did check with him specifically & he said no …

You might want to get someone in to look at it & check, rather than just going off the advice here - there might be an underlying cause that’s nothing to do with the tiling (although that doesn’t sound likely I’m afraid).

 

[Anthony]

Sorry, sounds like you might be right … no idea why you wouldn’t want to put a primer down on a new surface like that … bound to be some sort of residue / powder somewhere as it’s dried & for the time it takes to apply a primer, even with a brush, it’s not worth the potential impact of not doing … but if you didn’t provide it, that’s what he might say, but then you did check with him specifically & he said no …

You might want to get someone in to look at it & check, rather than just going off the advice here - there might be an underlying cause that’s nothing to do with the tiling (although that doesn’t sound likely I’m afraid).

Took a few up now. First one was 112 m2 took 2 of us 75 minutes to take it up, with a hand full of adhesive left on the floor!!

 

[procastinator]

Sorry, sounds like you might be right … no idea why you wouldn’t want to put a primer down on a new surface like that … bound to be some sort of residue / powder somewhere as it’s dried & for the time it takes to apply a primer, even with a brush, it’s not worth the potential impact of not doing … but if you didn’t provide it, that’s what he might say, but then you did check with him specifically & he said no …

You might want to get someone in to look at it & check, rather than just going off the advice here - there might be an underlying cause that’s nothing to do with the tiling (although that doesn’t sound likely I’m afraid).

Someone has looked at it and said it is due to the primer not being put down. The tiler isn't taking any responsibility to the point of ignoring my calls. I am lost at this moment.
What can be done? The other guy mentioned epoxy grout as he thought the epoxy might hold the tiles stronger. The gap between the tiles is 2m which won't be enough to drill and pump fix a floor solution. What do you recon?

 

[procastinator]

Took a few up now. First one was 112 m2 took 2 of us 75 minutes to take it up, with a hand full of adhesive left on the floor!!

Hey Anthony, is it worth re-grouting or spreading epoxy over the tiles to hold them down before we start taking all of 100 sq m of tiles?

 

[Dave]

Primer HAS to be used and an Anhydrite screed … end of and also more than one coat.. other questions : is the screed heated ? : How long had the screed been down ?.

 

[Anthony]

Someone has looked at it and said it is due to the primer not being put down. The tiler isn't taking any responsibility to the point of ignoring my calls. I am lost at this moment.
What can be done? The other guy mentioned epoxy grout as he thought the epoxy might hold the tiles stronger. The gap between the tiles is 2m which won't be enough to drill and pump fix a floor solution. What do you recon?

Hey Anthony, is it worth re-grouting or spreading epoxy over the tiles to hold them down before we start taking all of 100 sq m of tiles?

Hi.it’s a case of starting again. The tiles are effectively just sitting on top of the subfloor, the only thing holding them down is the weight of tile and the adhesive stuck to the back of them. There’s absolutely no point throwing more money at it with epoxy.
Sorry to hear of your agony.

 

[procastinator]

Primer HAS to be used and an Anhydrite screed … end of and also more than one coat.. other questions : is the screed heated ? : How long had the screed been down ?.

Hi Dave, the screed was put down in end of May 2022. The screed is heated.
The primer looks like has been missed. What are my options now?

 

[procastinator]

Hi.it’s a case of starting again. The tiles are effectively just sitting on top of the subfloor, the only thing holding them down is the weight of tile and the adhesive stuck to the back of them. There’s absolutely no point throwing more money at it with epoxy.
Sorry to hear of your agony.

Thanks for the advice Anthony. Appreciate it. I will see if I can get hold of the tiler and get him to correct this. I don't have much faith in if I would be able to. Can't even take him to some sort of court.

 

[Dave]

Hi Dave, the screed was put down in end of May 2022. The screed is heated.
The primer looks like has been missed. What are my options now?

If it’s not primed, then it’s failed due to ettringite formation due to reaction with the cementitious based adhesive and the gypsum content of the screed. No other fix than a full rip out and prepping correctly will work. A full lack of knowledge by your tile installer.

 

[Ajax123]

It is not possible on most ufh systems to increase the temperature by 1C. I’m interested to know how you achieved this?

 

[procastinator]

It is not possible on most ufh systems to increase the temperature by 1C. I’m interested to know how you achieved this?

I have hive thermostat. Kept the thermostat on the tile, it gave me a temperature and then I set the target to 1 degree higher than what was displayed. Once it be hit the target it would automatically cut off heating. This was the method followed.

 

[procastinator]

If it’s not primed, then it’s failed due to ettringite formation due to reaction with the cementitious based adhesive and the gypsum content of the screed. No other fix than a full rip out and prepping correctly will work. A full lack of knowledge by your tile installer.

hi @Dave so it seems like I need to get the work surveyed by a pro tiler, get a report of all what's wrong, get a quote of redoing the work and then confront the tiler with the facts. They are not picking my phone. So logically am thinking how can I get them to listen. Possibly send them a legal letter illustrating the case? What do you reckon?

 

[Ajax123]

Your use of the room stat to control the temperature is an in appropriate way to do it. The flow temperature of the water within the screed is the important bit. That can only be controlled at the mixing valve or the boiler. That is why you cannot really control it as finely as 1C per day. Using the stat controls the room temp not the glow temp. My gut feeling is that the incoming temperature has been too high and has shocked the floor and that is the reason for the tiles popping.

 

[Anthony]

Your use of the room stat to control the temperature is an in appropriate way to do it. The flow temperature of the water within the screed is the important bit. That can only be controlled at the mixing valve or the boiler. That is why you cannot really control it as finely as 1C per day. Using the stat controls the room temp not the glow temp. My gut feeling is that the incoming temperature has been too high and has shocked the floor and that is the reason for the tiles popping.

Irrelevant! She’s established it’s not been primed. You don’t even need to have ufh for this to happen. It’s a chemical reaction between screed and cement!

 

[Ajax123]

Irrelevant! She’s established it’s not been primed. You don’t even need to have ufh for this to happen. It’s a chemical reaction between screed and cement!

I missed that it hadn’t been primed. That won’t help either depending on the adhesive used of course… (I might have missed that as well)

 

[Anthony]

I missed that it hadn’t been primed. That won’t help either depending on the adhesive used of course… (I might have missed that as well)

in all fairness bud, adhesive won’t play a part either, what happens is,as this type of screed dries the moisture rises to the top as it dries and forms a mineral on top, in effect a barrier between floor and tile,(so your sticking to the mineral and not the floor,this needs to be ground/sanded off then primed twice, one diluted,usually 1 part primer 3 parts water which will soak in and when dried,you will then go over again with neat primer.
Because even after sanding the calcium screed reacts all cement based adhesives hence the need to prime

 

[Ajax123]

in all fairness bud, adhesive won’t play a part either, what happens is,as this type of screed dries the moisture rises to the top as it dries and forms a mineral on top, in effect a barrier between floor and tile,(so your sticking to the mineral and not the floor,this needs to be ground/sanded off then primed twice, one diluted,usually 1 part primer 3 parts water which will soak in and when dried,you will then go over again with neat primer.
Because even after sanding the calcium screed reacts all cement based adhesives hence the need to prime

Hmm… best not get into a debate about anhydrite…

 

[procastinator]

Hi all, since we last spoke I wanted to provide a bit of an update.
I got a professional tiler to come have a look at the problem. He had provided me with a report which clearly states no preparation of the floor as he found dust when he lifted the tile. The tile came off easily.
I have sent the toilet a letter with the report on mail and asked him to rectify the problem. He called me today evening two days after getting the letter and was screamy, not ready to accept responsibility. He said he didn't did any contract as we agreed things verbally and hung up on me.
I have been advised by citizens advice to give him 14 days in the letter and did give him the option of alternative dispute resolution before proceeding to the next stage.
I have tried to ask his friend to put some sense in him.
I do have his company details which was included in the letter. I have screenshots of the WhatsApp chats and the bank transfers.

Should I be hopeful?

 

[Dan]

A long shot. But there may be hope.

Any update now given the time passed?

 

[Tajinder]

A long shot. But there may be hope.

Any update now given the time passed?

Hi @Dan , I sent another letter which was the letter before court action. The tiler called me straight after receiving the letter and offered to visit. They brought someone with them as a mediator. We have them a tour of the shoddy work they had done but I wasn't surprised when they didn't accept any responsibility. Kept on blaming us by saying they applied what we had provided and that all liability lies with us. The mediator was more level headed and saw the argument for what it was. After numerous hours of phone calls we have another follow up on a few weeks time. The tiler did say they would rip and put the tiles down again this time with preparation. But the tiles have to be provided by us. We are going to speak again to see what their proposal is and maybe come to a compromise. I don't know if going to court is fruitful. From what I have read, the court will also recommend mediation. And am not sure if the court can mandate that the tiler pay the damages in full if the case decision is in my favor. It would be good to get some clarity if it's worth pursuing or not. New tiles aren't going to be cheap and we will have to live through the disruption.

 

[Slippery]

taking the matter to court will cost thousands and take at least a year.
It's unfortunate but I would offer to pay for new tiles (if the old ones cannot be saved) and let him pay for adhesive and primer and provide the labour.

 

[Rutters]

Not sure if this has been mentioned on this thread but I've seen this happen before on the type of screed described. And this was when the screed was dust free, primed with acrylic primer several times with movement joints installed and flexible cement based adhesive used as per manufacturer guidelines. What I believe solves this problem would be to install a decoupling Matting such as Ditra or a similar product. The substrate would need to have dried properly and prepared properly prior to fixing the Matt with flexible adhesive. Yes the cost would be more for the customer but it would avoid what's been explained in this thread.

 

[procastinator]

Not sure if this has been mentioned on this thread but I've seen this happen before on the type of screed described. And this was when the screed was dust free, primed with acrylic primer several times with movement joints installed and flexible cement based adhesive used as per manufacturer guidelines. What I believe solves this problem would be to install a decoupling Matting such as Ditra or a similar product. The substrate would need to have dried properly and prepared properly prior to fixing the Matt with flexible adhesive. Yes the cost would be more for the customer but it would avoid what's been explained in this thread.

Hey Rutters, the mat was mentioned to us by Topps Tiles as recommended but the tiler didn't. I will keep that in mind for the rework. They aren't cheap as you said but a job well done says all this hassle.

 

[procastinator]

taking the matter to court will cost thousands and take at least a year.
It's unfortunate but I would offer to pay for new tiles (if the old ones cannot be saved) and let him pay for adhesive and primer and provide the labour.

Hi @Slippery thanks for the advice. Am going to talk to the tiler and his mediator and see where we can find common ground. The work will have to be done early summer next year now that we have started using the heating in the house.

 

[AliGage]

Hi everyone.

So I've been out the game for a few years after a serious hand injury. Just getting back into the swing of things.
I can't believe it took until page 4 of responses before anyone mentioned sanding/removing the latence from the screed. This needs to be done on anhydrate screeds before you even think of priming it.

Hi @Dan , I sent another letter which was the letter before court action. The tiler called me straight after receiving the letter and offered to visit. They brought someone with them as a mediator. We have them a tour of the shoddy work they had done but I wasn't surprised when they didn't accept any responsibility. Kept on blaming us by saying they applied what we had provided and that all liability lies with us. The mediator was more level headed and saw the argument for what it was. After numerous hours of phone calls we have another follow up on a few weeks time. The tiler did say they would rip and put the tiles down again this time with preparation. But the tiles have to be provided by us. We are going to speak again to see what their proposal is and maybe come to a compromise. I don't know if going to court is fruitful. From what I have read, the court will also recommend mediation. And am not sure if the court can mandate that the tiler pay the damages in full if the case decision is in my favor. It would be good to get some clarity if it's worth pursuing or not. New tiles aren't going to be cheap and we will have to live through the disruption.

Small claims court is your way forward I feel.
A judge can order a QS to survey and provide a report and estimated cost of repair.
I perhaps would get a few quotes prior in preparation. Not sure I'd want the same guy back to fix it to be honest.
QS costs and cost of repair (including replacing tiles) will be a cost bared by the respondent

taking the matter to court will cost thousands and take at least a year.
It's unfortunate but I would offer to pay for new tiles (if the old ones cannot be saved) and let him pay for adhesive and primer and provide the labour.

Nonsense.
Small claims court, can do it online. Is a fairly quick process and last time I had to go through it it was about £150

 

[procastinator]

Hi everyone.

So I've been out the game for a few years after a serious hand injury. Just getting back into the swing of things.
I can't believe it took until page 4 of responses before anyone mentioned sanding/removing the latence from the screed. This needs to be done on anhydrate screeds before you even think of priming it.


Small claims court is your way forward I feel.
A judge can order a QS to survey and provide a report and estimated cost of repair.
I perhaps would get a few quotes prior in preparation. Not sure I'd want the same guy back to fix it to be honest.
QS costs and cost of repair (including replacing tiles) will be a cost bared by the respondent

Nonsense.
Small claims court, can do it online. Is a fairly quick process and last time I had to go through it it was about £150

Hi @AliGage , thanks for responding. I haven't come across anyone bar you till date who is advocating going down the small claims court. I would like to get your perspective on this.
I have a quotation from a couple of traders which along with new tiles will cost us around 10k. The small claims court Make a court claim for money - https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees is £455 to bring you up to date. As per people there will be costs to be paid by myself for any surveys, mediation etc as he might not agree to come to the table.

I have already got a report done by a registered trader.
The issue I have is that there is no contract, or vat receipt, the trader isn't registered to a traders body. All I have is the chat of money requested and paid to the tiler, his company name registered to the companies house. I brought him the material and tiles, and as per him its my responsibility as I didn't supply the primer. He just did the work of setting the tiles.
Now currently I have him agreeing to clear and redo the tiles while I provide the tiles.

If I do put a small claim against them, and was able to get a decision in my favour - can they turn around show the accounts of being in loss as most vat registered businesses do and pay me a measly £50/£100 a month. That's what I have been told could happen.
This being my first running in with law I am not sure what to do. Ideally I would claim but will it be worth it.

 

[procastinator]

So folks, it has been a while since the last update.
The tiler initially agreed to help out but has since stopped taking the phone calls and has been ignoring us.

I am at the stage where we are going to take the loss, learn and move on from it.

Will are going to take the tiles up, clearing / levelling the floor, priming (x2), decoupling mat put down, then new tiles on top. This is going to happen this summer to everything to settle before underfloor heating is utilised in winter.

Just a very frustrating experience.

 

[Dan]

So sorry to hear about it all! It sucks.

But you know how it should be done now so know what to watch out for.

Do you have a tiler now then or are you tackling it?

 

[procastinator]

So sorry to hear about it all! It sucks.

But you know how it should be done now so know what to watch out for.

Do you have a tiler now then or are you tackling it?

Hey Dan,

Thanks. Hope we have it all covered now.

Re: Tiler. I do have someone who did the bathroom tiles. I played dumb with him when I asked him to check the floor tiling work. Questioned him what he would go on about tiling a UFH and the process. He said the correct things.

Should I be worried? Or do you have something in mind?

 

[Dan]

No no you're right to do some testing with him. Decoupler and flexi-everything (adhesive and grout) and you should be all gravy.

 

[procastinator]

No no you're right to do some testing with him. Decoupler and flexi-everything (adhesive and grout) and you should be all gravy.

Hey @Dan, we are starting the project to relay the tiles.
Would you recommend sanding after the tiles have been removed? If yes, which tool please.
Which primer is recommended from experience on anhydride/gypsum based screed?
Which mat is recommended from experience please since there are so many on the market?
TIA.