Kitchen Floor - Tiles Dilemma - Need Help - Tile Advice

[jack_bauer]

Hi,

I recently purchased my first property and the existing kitchen floor porcelain tiles were all moving, some were cracked and the grout was missing in places and crumbling away.
I decided to get the whole floor re-done.
I found a tiler on RatedPeople to take it all up. He took up all the tiles and noticed that the previous installer put adhesive all over the plywood subfloor, leaving gaps in some places mind you, and then dot and dabbed the tiles with more adhesive onto the spread out adhesive. It looks like this was done in order to level the floor. In some places the adhesive was 2cm thick towards the back of the kitchen by the appliances but there was barely any adhesive towards the hallway end where the floor is higher. The tiles literally came off clean, most without breaking.
My tiler claimed that the lack of an uncoupling membrane and the very bad dot and dab technique is what caused the previous tiles to fail.
Pictures of what was unearthed are attached.

My new tiler removed the tiles and adhesive and said the floor was solid and that it just needed levelling prior to installing UFH with Ditra before tiling. He laid Ultra Tile Fix Pro Level One Deep Fill Floor Leveller to level the floor. Once laid, he put the central heating on at 25 degrees and left for it to dry.
The latex has since cracked all over the kitchen floor. Walking on it 5 days later is like walking on cracking ice. My entire house is humid and the latex on the shallower end of my kitchen comes up with little effort. It doesn't peel off towards the deeper end of the kitchen but it is still cracked everywhere. Pictures attached.

My new tiler has since said he does not want to complete the work and has left without taking any payment and I am now stuck with a kitchen that looks like a building site, covered in floor leveller that is cracked.
I am finding it hard to find a tiler to come and rectify this problem. What exactly needs to be done? I am lost. There are so many different opinions. All I want is the floor to be fixed with UFH in place.
Some tilers are saying the plywood should come up, that I should install cement board, without an uncoupling membrane and then tile. Some are saying to use insulation boards with no need for a membrane. Others are saying so install the UFH first and then use latex leveller on top.
I'm really lost. What can I do? Can someone please explain to me exactly what needs to be done? assuming:

1. I leave the plywood
2. I replace the plywood with something else.

Do I need an uncoupling membrane? Do I need cement board? Do I need insulation boards? What order should all this be done?
Please bear in mind, I don't have much height to play with. My kitchen it shallower at the hallway end (picture attached showing where it meets the wooden flooring of my hallway) and deeper at the appliance end. I don't want to run the risk of not being able to take the appliances out. I have attached as many pictures as I can.

Really hoping to get some good advice from the experts here.

Thanks

 

[Dave]

Hi and welcome. First off can i ask what substrate is under the plywood?

 

[jack_bauer]

Hi and welcome. First off can i ask what substrate is under the plywood?

Hi Dave, thank you.
This may be a stupid question but I thought the plywood was the substrate? :s
I believe under the plywood it is just floorboards but I can check tonight after work when I visit the property. It's is currently vacant but let's assume it is floorboards because I'm fairly certain it is.

 

[jack_bauer]

Picture of the latex peeling off.

 

[Dave]

Hi Dave, thank you.
This may be a stupid question but I thought the plywood was the substrate? :s
I believe under the plywood it is just floorboards but I can check tonight after work when I visit the property. It's is currently vacant but let's assume it is floorboards because I'm fairly certain it is.

Personally I would remove the plywood, it’s now not advisable to use plywood for tiling under BS5385. Then overly with Hardibacker 250 (6mm). Install UFH and self levelling over that. No need for crack mat.

 

[jack_bauer]

Personally I would remove the plywood, it’s now not advisable to use plywood for tiling under BS5385. Then overly with Hardibacker 250 (6mm). Install UFH and self levelling over that. No need for crack mat.

What about decoupling membrane?

 

[Dave]

What about decoupling membrane?

No need.

 

[angrypirate]

As Dave advised, I would remove the ply and then possibly the floorboards dependant on what state they are in. It'll cost a bit more but the floor but you'll have peace of mind.
Go back to the joist get it level and strengthened, then rebuild with WBP ply, hardie etc etc.

Where are you? Maybe someone on here might be close enough to give you a quote..

 

[JMC tiling]

The latex has been mixed way too wet by the looks of the light colour of it so was bound to fail. What did he prime it with? is he floor solid when you walk on it or is there any deflection in the floor (up and down movement?) If the deflection is minimal, remove the ply and get back to floorboards, make sure the floor boards are screwed down then overboard with 6mm backerboards such as no-more-ply or Hardie. Then either A: lay the electric UFH matting and use self-leveller to cover wires and get floor level for tiling or B. level floor over the 6mm backerboards and use a decoupling matting such as dural that has the groves incorporated to clip in a lose wire UFH circuit and tile directly onto that.

If there is too much deflection in floor then unless you get under the floor and strengthen to alleviate the movement, you will need to avoid using a tile i'm afraid as it is bound to fail regardless.

Hope this helps.

 

[jack_bauer]

As Dave advised, I would remove the ply and then possibly the floorboards dependant on what state they are in. It'll cost a bit more but the floor but you'll have peace of mind.
Go back to the joist get it level and strengthened, then rebuild with WBP ply, hardie etc etc.

Where are you? Maybe someone on here might be close enough to give you a quote..

I am based in Redbridge, East London if there are any expert tilers here that would like to quote

 

[jack_bauer]

The latex has been mixed way too wet by the looks of the light colour of it so was bound to fail. What did he prime it with? is he floor solid when you walk on it or is there any deflection in the floor (up and down movement?) If the deflection is minimal, remove the ply and get back to floorboards, make sure the floor boards are screwed down then overboard with 6mm backerboards such as no-more-ply or Hardie. Then either A: lay the electric UFH matting and use self-leveller to cover wires and get floor level for tiling or B. level floor over the 6mm backerboards and use a decoupling matting such as dural that has the groves incorporated to clip in a lose wire UFH circuit and tile directly onto that.

If there is too much deflection in floor then unless you get under the floor and strengthen to alleviate the movement, you will need to avoid using a tile i'm afraid as it is bound to fail regardless.

Hope this helps.

Unfortunately I don't know what he has primed it with. Some white liquid is all I know.
In terms of the floor, I am not sure if there is any deflection however the previous tiler said the floor was solid
I am trying to get some tilers to quote me on the works. I am trying to get quotes for the following:


1. Remove the Latex
2. Check if the Ply is good and screwed in properly. If it is, continue the work again, using the appropriate materials (Insulation boards, UFH, leveller, Ditra)
3. If the ply is not good, to remove it and start again, using cement board, then UFH, Leveller, Ditra.

Is that the correct approach? Seems to me all the responses above do suggest the use of an uncoupling membrane, which I thought was essential, especially when using UFH which causes contraction and expansion.

 

[Huddersfield Tiling]

Hi,

I recently purchased my first property and the existing kitchen floor porcelain tiles were all moving, some were cracked and the grout was missing in places and crumbling away.
I decided to get the whole floor re-done.
I found a tiler on RatedPeople to take it all up. He took up all the tiles and noticed that the previous installer put adhesive all over the plywood subfloor, leaving gaps in some places mind you, and then dot and dabbed the tiles with more adhesive onto the spread out adhesive. It looks like this was done in order to level the floor. In some places the adhesive was 2cm thick towards the back of the kitchen by the appliances but there was barely any adhesive towards the hallway end where the floor is higher. The tiles literally came off clean, most without breaking.
My tiler claimed that the lack of an uncoupling membrane and the very bad dot and dab technique is what caused the previous tiles to fail.
Pictures of what was unearthed are attached.

My new tiler removed the tiles and adhesive and said the floor was solid and that it just needed levelling prior to installing UFH with Ditra before tiling. He laid Ultra Tile Fix Pro Level One Deep Fill Floor Leveller to level the floor. Once laid, he put the central heating on at 25 degrees and left for it to dry.
The latex has since cracked all over the kitchen floor. Walking on it 5 days later is like walking on cracking ice. My entire house is humid and the latex on the shallower end of my kitchen comes up with little effort. It doesn't peel off towards the deeper end of the kitchen but it is still cracked everywhere. Pictures attached.

My new tiler has since said he does not want to complete the work and has left without taking any payment and I am now stuck with a kitchen that looks like a building site, covered in floor leveller that is cracked.
I am finding it hard to find a tiler to come and rectify this problem. What exactly needs to be done? I am lost. There are so many different opinions. All I want is the floor to be fixed with UFH in place.
Some tilers are saying the plywood should come up, that I should install cement board, without an uncoupling membrane and then tile. Some are saying to use insulation boards with no need for a membrane. Others are saying so install the UFH first and then use latex leveller on top.
I'm really lost. What can I do? Can someone please explain to me exactly what needs to be done? assuming:

1. I leave the plywood
2. I replace the plywood with something else.

Do I need an uncoupling membrane? Do I need cement board? Do I need insulation boards? What order should all this be done?
Please bear in mind, I don't have much height to play with. My kitchen it shallower at the hallway end (picture attached showing where it meets the wooden flooring of my hallway) and deeper at the appliance end. I don't want to run the risk of not being able to take the appliances out. I have attached as many pictures as I can.

Really hoping to get some good advice from the experts here.

Thanks

 

[Huddersfield Tiling]

Hi,
The floor boards must be solid and sound. Then, as other tilers have stressed: it must be over-boarded with a cement board. Then checked for flatness and level. Will need levelling if not flat, then tiling.

 

[benchwarmer]

As Dave said,
Rip everything up to exposed floorboard.
Fix any loose floorboards
Overlay with 6mm hardie
Level
Tile
Nothing more, nothing less 👌