M
My dog's called Trevor
Many thanks and yes of course. Rude not to and hopefully will all be good news
Thanks again
Matt
I'm Stuck - Wish My Tiles Were
Tilers Forums Official Sponsors
Many thanks and yes of course. Rude not to and hopefully will all be good news
Thanks again
Matt
M
My dog's called Trevor
Not entirely clear on that detail. As all of this was in the preparation, just happy for the minute that that is where the focus is. Amazing today that talking to him, he knew exactly what to do but said he did it all super quick because the kitchen delivery date was set and by then not renegotiable (could have been and had already delayed it once to give him an extra week -during which we didn't see him). Bonkers. A couple of hundred quid for warehouse storage would have been a better plan. Real worry for him is whether he's learned anything. I'm not sure he has. Oh well.
Thanks for your interest.
Matt
Thinking about it.
I'd have a thermostat for each floor. And let them have their own cables. Your wood one won't take long to heat. It'll never get as cold as the other area. So you don't want it switching on with the concrete side.
I'd go with treating them as different areas. It might feel annoying only feeling one side warming on its own every now and again but on cold days the whole thing will be on. Warm days maybe just the concrete side.
J
J Sid
Was thinking the same Dan, but if both have insulation boards there really should be no noticeable difference in heat up time.
But for the cost of a thermostat and the ability to have more control over the temperatures, then separate ones is good
But for the cost of a thermostat and the ability to have more control over the temperatures, then separate ones is good
Ahhhh while insulation boards have insulating values; they're not a material that will totally block out temperature changes.
Hence the varying thicknesses available. Even 4mm difference between 6mm and 10mm is noticeable.
I used to run Advanced Floor Heating. Waaaay back when only a few heating brands were available. Paul Short (of floor heating ltd) and then myself started this trend off of this blue insulation. I know quite a bit about it.
J
J Sid
Christ Dan, is their anything you haven't done.
You should give a thought to a new avatar, some sort of cowboy.
You should give a thought to a new avatar, some sort of cowboy.
M
My dog's called Trevor
Interesting (genuinely, and a bit worrying that it is) as had come to that thought today.
Firstly, although maybe possible, struck me as difficult how you'd have two thermostats informing one control as to when it should/shouldn't allow power to the two separate systems. It would have to allow power to both. So it would be controlled preferentially by whichever area was coolest, 'telling' it to switch to on, and so activating both systems. I don't know this for a fact but don't think the controls are designed to need to be this clever in splitting two input signals and outputs separately. Might have this all wrong.
Something like a CH/HW control could handle it as basically it's taking two completely separate instructions from two systems. Even then its output is to signal the boiler to fire or not fire so there is still only one common outcome - in a heating/hot water system it'd be the room or cylinder thermostats shutting down the MCVs to isolate out that circuit so there is a plumbing shut out which separates the delivery of the control, and therefore boiler, response to the two systems. I'm sure an electrical equivalent is possible but starting to get complicated and would all have to be outside of the standard controls.
Started to think that two separate systems, which will just need setting for the same on/off times or temperature settings would let the whole room run almost as one system.
Or this is all too complicated. The system put down has a temperature sensor under the tiles and a thermostatic control informed by the air temperature in the vicinity of the control box. It'd be air temperature chiefly controlling the heating. Provided the floor sensor was coming from the area likely to be hotter, that would protect any cables from becoming excessively hot. That would tend to leave the less easily heated area cooler.
Anyway, haven't researched this sufficiently to my satisfaction to understand what happens when this and that occurs - eg are the floor sensors just to cut supply if there is excessive floor temperature build up? You wouldn't want to let the temperature under the floor limit the temperature in the room, same as you wouldn't want to let your boiler temperature limit room temperature, until the under floor/boiler temperature reached a level that might threaten the cable/boiler, so you have over-riding cut outs. Not asking you to answer this, just thinking out loud. Struck me it might not be the floor sensors controlling the heating rather than the thermostat in the control box which is effectively a room thermostat, in CH parlance. The box I've got has the facility to be set by room or under floor temperature - unless the under floor temperature gets crazy, you'd always opt for room temperature as that's the point of it. Just for your amusement, when our system was running for a couple of cold weeks in January, room temperature of around 24 needed an under floor temperature, with lots and lots of lovely insulating air around the cables, of a blistering 35.
Only other thing I wondered was that if the insulation under the cables is half-decent, does the difference in flooring beyond the insulation make that much difference? Again, not asking you to answer this but loose ends to sort out before mixing up the first batch of adhesive to lay the first tile.
I've got some homework to do to keep my best mate builder on the right track. Good at homework these days. Bought a big bloody ultra HD telly for the kitchen not having bought a telly for about 6 years. God, don't things change? So what I've discovered about Cat 5a vs 6 ethernet, HDMI 1.4 and 2.0, 4k TV signals and so on.... UFH can be cracked.
Thanks as ever
Matt
M
My dog's called Trevor
Ok, since writing this, Julian and Dan have addressed part of what I queried. Sod it - I'm just going to leave the cooker on with the door open. It's got a timer apparently, although the book's so bloody complicated, none of us has worked out how to use that.
Matt
J
J Sid
I would of thought the thickness of the insulation board over the two substrates will determine the answer wether to go with two thermostats and two controllers.
I have electric ufh in mist of my rooms controlled by probe in floor, have no idea if air temp control is better or not
I have electric ufh in mist of my rooms controlled by probe in floor, have no idea if air temp control is better or not
I think I can.
You seem to be a specific kinda bloke. And I think the one time the floor half heats up, you'd notice it. And it might be annoying.
Pretty sure you can just tell the stats these days which one is primary. I'm talking out my arse there assuming it's still 1999
So perhaps opt for air and run as you'd suggest. Allow the whole floor to heat at the same time.
Last edited:
Steady on now. I'm no cowboy. If I'm doing something I endeavour to be the best at it. And I'm not always far off. 🙄
That is how it's done.
This is the same room though, but different substrates. So the cable can't cross the join (it might cause it to snag or stretch in the future) therefore wise to perhaps run the two heating systems independently. Ones wood and wont get as cold as the concrete side, naturally.
O
Old Mod
Hey Matt,
Any progress?
Any progress?
M
My dog's called Trevor
Spooky. Have been thinking over the last few days that the time was way overdue to reward all of you who so generously gave your advice before with some more of my mundane drivel.
The short answer is yes, sort of, and no, not really.
Therein lies a tale or two which span dodgy wiring, a near-fatal accident, through to reinforcing a timber floor and, most unlikely of all, I am sure you will agree, Lloyd Grossman pasta sauce.
'How can tiling a floor incorporate such a variety of seemingly unrelated adventures?' I hear you ask, your intrigue almost palpable, even through this electronic medium.
Not going to have time this afternoon to give a full update of this saga but will try later this evening to issue the next gripping installment - well, at least more gripping than the stuff used on my tiles.
Talk Later
Regards
Matt
O
Old Mod
Well Matt, if the day ever comes, when dodgy wiring, a near fatal accident, joist strengthening and Lloyd Grossman become less than ammussing in the hands of an accomplished penman like yourself, I would assume that then, and only then, would we stop anticipating the next instalment of your mundane drivel! 😀
I'm sure I can speak for a large percentage of members, and say,
We look forward to it!
I'm sure I can speak for a large percentage of members, and say,
We look forward to it!
M
My dog's called Trevor
Bless you for those kind words.
I fear now, having gripped your attention, I will have to live up to expectations so will have to spend a little time embellishing details while keeping things vaguly believable - actually won't have to too much.
Watch this space. Hopefully later tonight after work with a few pics just to make it more colourful
I fear now, having gripped your attention, I will have to live up to expectations so will have to spend a little time embellishing details while keeping things vaguly believable - actually won't have to too much.
Watch this space. Hopefully later tonight after work with a few pics just to make it more colourful
O
Old Mod
Hear hear! 🙂
M
My dog's called Trevor
As promised, and by popular demand (well, just 3_fall, as it happens), an update on the song and dance that is my kitchen floor. Who would have thought so many twists and turns lay ahead on a fateful day last autumn when everything seemed ready to embark on one of the later stages of a relatively common kitchen extension? Who could have known that such a seemingly surmountable hurdle would rear itself into such an inexplicably complex and untameable beast? Oh yeah, my builder if he’d stopped for five minutes and had a think about things or picked up a ‘How to’ leaflet at Homebase.
I feel an explanation is owed for the tardiness in updating you good people as I had said I would. The truth is that, in a sense, there is little to say (except that probably won’t happen). The old floor is up and the new one far from being relayed. So I cannot, sadly, give you a final word that all is done but perhaps, like many great stories, we don’t really want the end to come (oh my God, how I want it to come). Such lack of progress in two months has been far from uneventful though. Notwithstanding the on-going lack of a proper floor, the process has not been without some tangential benefits. It is indeed an ill wind that blows nobody any good, although I would caution using that metaphor if you’re ever near someone with dysentery.
Enough nonsense though and on to the subject at hand (or, technically, foot if you think about it) – the floor. A brief recap for those who have had more over which to lose sleep these last weeks than a bloke belly-aching about his builder. Kitchen extension roughly 5x5 metres, floor tiled dot-and-dab (oh yes) over electric UFH with cables uncovered by adhesive/SLC/screed/anything else but the tile (oh yes, that too) then lots of lovely new kitchen fitted on top of it (which is obviously the best place to put it - under it doesn’t help as a rule); tiles started lifting (even where there wasn’t UFH), builder back, long chats, some proposals verging on insanity (in my view, and one endorsed by a good representative of the members of this most reputable forum) of rectifying matters with expanding foam and Gripfill; empowered with the opinion of the tiling trade proper (that’s you), more chats concluding with a glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel of madness that we would take up all the tiles that could be reached including those partially covered by kitchen units or end panels and lose the UFH, then SLC to the area not covered by units, insulation board, UFH (mat this time not loose cable so the power per sq metre would be right for the refit – another story), solid bed adhesive then tile, and all home by tea time. What could possibly go wrong?
We agreed I would do this with him at weekends to help move the job along and keep down his costs. Not completely altruistic, this; I also wanted to see things were being done how I wanted them. I don’t know how many of you have been involved in such a working relationship but it makes for a strange dynamic. Basically I was unskilled labour for the expert (hmm, maybe) but retaining executive decision on what we were going to do, or at least what we definitely were not going to do.
So off we went and made encouraging progress – which was no surprise as the tiles came up almost just by thinking about it. Spurred on by this and witty, sophisticated banter (which was probably jut us swearing at each other) we cleared the area not covered by kitchen units and the like and congratulated ourselves that we were getting there, although perhaps we were a little premature. This I feel would be a good point for a pictorial interlude as I would forgive anyone who felt in need of some respite from what is becoming increasingly verbose as I neck down another can of beer while simultaneously responding to work emails as I write this.
First just for giggles on what we were facing (not the bike and rubble in the yard)
Next, don't think we'll be needing these fellas
Trevor, who is my dog if you hadn't realised, has always taken a dim view of dot and dab tiling and has seen nothing recently to make him think otherwise
Up it all comes....
...and gone...
...except for under the units...
...as you can see.
And there I will have to leave you in suspense, or disappointedly bored anticlimax, I am afraid. I appreciate and fully understand the prospect of anecdotes of potentially life-threatening events and a widely-available pre-prepared pasta sauce may have whetted the appetite for more. It is with genuinely deep regret that I will have to sign off at this late hour (took ages to get the bloody pictures off my phone and onto the post). Cheap tease or cliffhanger? - you decide (let's face it, it's going to be the former, especially if it goes to one of Dan's surveys). Those of you up for more, I will endeavor to bring you much more very soon (notice the get-out clause on 'endeavor'). Not trying to milk this, you know - I'd hope you've all got better things to do, God help you if you haven't.
So, 3_fall ('cos it can only be you left by now, surely), sorry if that hasn't met your full expectations but can you hold out a bit longer? For me? After all we've been through? I hope you can (rubbish with girls,me).
Night all, will put more on very soon when I can
Matt
I feel an explanation is owed for the tardiness in updating you good people as I had said I would. The truth is that, in a sense, there is little to say (except that probably won’t happen). The old floor is up and the new one far from being relayed. So I cannot, sadly, give you a final word that all is done but perhaps, like many great stories, we don’t really want the end to come (oh my God, how I want it to come). Such lack of progress in two months has been far from uneventful though. Notwithstanding the on-going lack of a proper floor, the process has not been without some tangential benefits. It is indeed an ill wind that blows nobody any good, although I would caution using that metaphor if you’re ever near someone with dysentery.
Enough nonsense though and on to the subject at hand (or, technically, foot if you think about it) – the floor. A brief recap for those who have had more over which to lose sleep these last weeks than a bloke belly-aching about his builder. Kitchen extension roughly 5x5 metres, floor tiled dot-and-dab (oh yes) over electric UFH with cables uncovered by adhesive/SLC/screed/anything else but the tile (oh yes, that too) then lots of lovely new kitchen fitted on top of it (which is obviously the best place to put it - under it doesn’t help as a rule); tiles started lifting (even where there wasn’t UFH), builder back, long chats, some proposals verging on insanity (in my view, and one endorsed by a good representative of the members of this most reputable forum) of rectifying matters with expanding foam and Gripfill; empowered with the opinion of the tiling trade proper (that’s you), more chats concluding with a glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel of madness that we would take up all the tiles that could be reached including those partially covered by kitchen units or end panels and lose the UFH, then SLC to the area not covered by units, insulation board, UFH (mat this time not loose cable so the power per sq metre would be right for the refit – another story), solid bed adhesive then tile, and all home by tea time. What could possibly go wrong?
We agreed I would do this with him at weekends to help move the job along and keep down his costs. Not completely altruistic, this; I also wanted to see things were being done how I wanted them. I don’t know how many of you have been involved in such a working relationship but it makes for a strange dynamic. Basically I was unskilled labour for the expert (hmm, maybe) but retaining executive decision on what we were going to do, or at least what we definitely were not going to do.
So off we went and made encouraging progress – which was no surprise as the tiles came up almost just by thinking about it. Spurred on by this and witty, sophisticated banter (which was probably jut us swearing at each other) we cleared the area not covered by kitchen units and the like and congratulated ourselves that we were getting there, although perhaps we were a little premature. This I feel would be a good point for a pictorial interlude as I would forgive anyone who felt in need of some respite from what is becoming increasingly verbose as I neck down another can of beer while simultaneously responding to work emails as I write this.
First just for giggles on what we were facing (not the bike and rubble in the yard)
Next, don't think we'll be needing these fellas
Trevor, who is my dog if you hadn't realised, has always taken a dim view of dot and dab tiling and has seen nothing recently to make him think otherwise
Up it all comes....
...and gone...
...except for under the units...
...as you can see.
And there I will have to leave you in suspense, or disappointedly bored anticlimax, I am afraid. I appreciate and fully understand the prospect of anecdotes of potentially life-threatening events and a widely-available pre-prepared pasta sauce may have whetted the appetite for more. It is with genuinely deep regret that I will have to sign off at this late hour (took ages to get the bloody pictures off my phone and onto the post). Cheap tease or cliffhanger? - you decide (let's face it, it's going to be the former, especially if it goes to one of Dan's surveys). Those of you up for more, I will endeavor to bring you much more very soon (notice the get-out clause on 'endeavor'). Not trying to milk this, you know - I'd hope you've all got better things to do, God help you if you haven't.
So, 3_fall ('cos it can only be you left by now, surely), sorry if that hasn't met your full expectations but can you hold out a bit longer? For me? After all we've been through? I hope you can (rubbish with girls,me).
Night all, will put more on very soon when I can
Matt
W
WetSaw
Oh dear.... I see your problem now. Everyone knows you need 5 dots with ufh not 4..
Absolute legend. I'm going to make a tag for you.
W
White Room
At least the tiles will be reusable....
There are similar tiling threads here
Featured Threads
-
- F
- W
-
- I
-
-
-
