Can it be true.....

[DavieA]

After much thought ive taken the jump and am using dural membrne on monday for the first time. Was in buying it a couple of days ago from topps and was told, wait for it......That as long as the floor has no vertical movement in it be used instead of ply! So on top of chipboard goes down flexi addy then the membrane then tile on top so works out costing the same to tile floor with ply as to tiling with membrane. I still cant beleive it so like i said as long as theres no vertical movement and floor is bounce free ply is not required when using this and it also provides a waterproof element as well.:hurray:

Is this a dream???

 

[DHTiling]

Dural from CTD..??? you sure..?

 

[DavieA]

No sorry from topps it was g mat from ctd, dural was a bit more expensive but looked better.

edited post accordingly, just as well someone proof reads my posts.

Cheers Dave

 

[DHTiling]

Topps are expensive..:lol:.. you can Dural Ci at very good prices if you know where to buy..🙂

 

[DavieA]

What you pay up your way , boyo said it was 10.50 to trade and 13.50 to the average joe.

 

[DHTiling]

Hell no... if i tell ya i will have to kill youuuuuuuuuu..🙂


















Around 5 quid a mtr..🙂

 

[DavieA]

Dave I take it your using Dural then what do you think and have you used it straight onto chipboard yet?

5er good effort and i thought you might say as much, LOL

 

[diamondtiling]

Dave I take it your using Dural then what do you think and have you used it straight onto chipboard yet?

5er good effort and i thought you might say as much, LOL

I very much doubt it.

 

[DHTiling]

On chipboard.. Nope.. hardi first.. I use Dural with all stone jobs.. and it is a great membrane.

 

[Stewart]

The stone suppliers I spoke of earlier are quoting the same installation jobs as me saying they can save you money by using Dural/Schluter instead of ply on chipboard floors, and that's with natural stone!




Sent using Tapatalk.....

 

[DavieA]

Thats what the manager said, even went to 2 stores because i didnt beleive it either but both said as long as no vertical movement its what there doing down south.

 

[DHTiling]

Ok.. if no and i mean NO deflection then it can be used..

 

[DavieA]

Yeah Stewart it seems that this could be the future from what i was hearing, I mean if the floor is bounce free and your flex addy can stick o chipboard why shouldnt it work??

Dangerous place my mind.....

 

[DHTiling]

Dural, like any other membrane of this type is to cope with lateral stress.. hence it needs to be deflection free.

 

[Scott]

Its not happening anywhere near any of my jobs and they're all south 🙂

I know people who use it over floorboards but not chipboard.

 

[DavieA]

Yeah I totally agree with you Dave. I usually have my joiners ply the floor before I arrive and then tile onto that but think maybe a better idea is to continue to have them ply the floor to ensure its deflection fre then use Dural on all floor jobs ceramic ,porcelain and stone then once again in my head I have the best of both worlds a strenghtned floor because ive used ply so verticle movent is eliminated and also because the membrane is on op of the ply the tiles are protected from any lateral movement AND its waterproofed.

 

[DavieA]

For anyones thats used this stuff any thoughts on best trowel bed thickness when using any membrane?

 

[DHTiling]

4mm..🙂

 

[DavieA]

ok , 4mm for bedding down mat and an 8mm/10mm depending on tile thickness?

Dave do you use a squared or round notched trowel?

 

[doug boardley]

okay then....starting from bare joists on a suspended wooden floor, how/when do we all use the uncoupler? (ideal scenario)

 

[DHTiling]

okay then....starting from bare joists on a suspended wooden floor, how/when do we all use the uncoupler? (ideal scenario)

Timber..🙂

 

[DavieA]

What are you starting Doug,LOL

My ideal is going to be,
1. Ply floor no matter if there floor boards, chipboard etc everything but screed
2. Lay mat on all floors no matter of tile type using flexi addy
3. Lay tile onto Dural using flexi addy
4. Grout and done...

 

[Daz]

Hi DavieA,

Your scenario is ideal, however, I think you may end up pricing yourself out of work due to over-specifing.

I use a decoupler for natural stone, regardless of substrate. For most ceramic and porcelain I just make sure that the floor is deflection free.

You need to asses each job and weigh up the possibility of lateral movement and, therefore, the use (or not) for a decoupling membrane.

IMO, there is no hard and fast rule for a decoupler, just common sense and risk assessment.

 

[DavieA]

Hi Captain Slow, I realise its an expense i just want it to be right but suppose if your 100% sure of no vertical movement the matting could simply be layed on chipboard cutting cost. Dont see any need for backerboards in any floor application as they dont add strength to a floor and matting can be layed on ply if extra strength is needed or just onto chipboard if floor is sound.

Any thoughts ?

 

[Daz]

I hear what you're saying. I can fit cement boards to a chipboard floor for less than a decoupling membrane so that is the way that I choose to go, but you have to cost it based on your supply chain.

At the end of the day, as long as you are confident with the preparation work then you will be happy to pin your reputation on it.

 

[Aston]

by installing backer boards onto ply only means that there is a more stable surface on which to tile...

the joists, ply/chip board, and backerboards on top, will/can still suffer from lateral movement, therefore, the decoupling membrane does a completely different role and protects the tile against lateral movement....

in short...

no matter how thick your joists and ply are, they can still suffer lateral (side to side) movement due to the joists lying on the inner skin of the brickwork of a wall...walls contract and expand continually throught the year, intial drying out process, ground movement and weather/temperature changes..

if you put backerboards onto ply, then this is not a substitute for a decoupling matt, its simply a more stable and compound surface in which to tile upon...

as mentioned in previous posts, deflection (up and down) movement, is a different movement than lateral (side to side) when you realise that, the decisions become more straightforward...

cheers
ed

 

[DavieA]

thanks all for the advice, I realise matting is to reduce the risk of lateral movement and because of that im going to use it on every single floor i will be tiling from now on no matter of tile type or sub. The only thing that will chage will be wheither or not ply is also required and that will depend on the vertical movement/bounce in the floor.

Is that sound ?

 

[Alan.P]

Its not happening anywhere near any of my jobs and they're all south 🙂

I know people who use it over floorboards but not chipboard.

How far South are you talking, because the sites I'm busy with at the moment ( M25 and South of ) are ALL chipboard with Dural, I've told several people of the dangers but that is the spec to which we have been told to work to, and this is off 3 major developers ( I won't mention names )

Am I happy doing it, knowing it might / will fail, no. But I get paid to do it ???

 

[DavieA]

Hi Alan, glad to hear what I was hearing from topps is true. Don't understand why it should fail though, If floors solid ie no bounce and addy is suitable for use on chipboard such as keraflex then the Matt will bond well to the chipboard floor and with the Matt once layed waterproofs the sub so there is no way the chipboard will get wet and fail. I believe that's the reason chipboard is not ideal for tiling directly on to is its susceptibility to swelling if it ever gets wet and coming apart but like I said after the matting is installed floors then waterproofed and water shouldn't be able to reach the subfloor.
Maybe its because were not used to this method were unsure but if you break it down it makes sense.
I think your the only tiler Alan that has said they have layed a floor this way on the fourm, how are you finding the installs? or

 

[Alan.P]

Hi Alan, glad to hear what I was hearing from topps is true. Don't understand why it should fail though, If floors solid ie no bounce and addy is suitable for use on chipboard such as keraflex then the Matt will bond well to the chipboard floor and with the Matt once layed waterproofs the sub so there is no way the chipboard will get wet and fail. I believe that's the reason chipboard is not ideal for tiling directly on to is its susceptibility to swelling if it ever gets wet and coming apart but like I said after the matting is installed floors then waterproofed and water shouldn't be able to reach the subfloor.
Maybe its because were not used to this method were unsure but if you break it down it makes sense.
I think your the only tiler Alan that has said they have layed a floor this way on the fourm, how are you finding the installs? or

Floors are no way solid, they are nailed and not screwed down, so another problem, we don't use adhesive, we use glue. As for the installs, the first lot that I / we did have been down a year or so with no phone calls, YET. As I said, I'm not happy doing it but as part of a larger picture, I'm not turning down hundreds of houses, the guy I subbie to is aware, the builder is aware, what to do,what would you do ?

 

[DavieA]

Yeah like you say you cant turn down hundreds of houses as thats a good job lot and if everyones aware of any issues that could occur but still want to go down that road then what can you do? Nothing really. Although not ideal if floors are not solid , kind of the golden rule, could now with decouplers argue as long as floors solid pl and backerboards aint required anymore.

Is it the mat your glueing down then using addy for tiles and is this the method spec'd in the plans?