Travertine-UFH=Decoupler? Aparently NOT..

[DavieA]

I still cant beleve theres tilers out there still not using decouplers for jobs it would clearly benifit.

Just went to see a domestic Travertine job. I was the 6th tiler to see job so hed had a lot of info already. Its 50m2 of module travertine layed over the ground floor of a property running through 5 rooms.

It has wet ufh then chipboard and 15mm ply in place. So I recomended laying dural over ply and fixed with keraflex then laying tile onto bed of keraflex using half round flooring trowel and flexible grout, Reconed it take around 6 days start to finish.

But my price was more expensive than others because id priced in decoupler which at £9m2 makes a difference. I explained that due to there being a wet ufh system and laying a natural tile onto wooden sub that the dural would allow lateral movement of sub without stressing tile and grout. But he said none of the tilers had heard of or mentioned it apart from one of them, the most expensive one had heard of it or knew what it was...

Am I way off or what:mad2: ?

 

[kevin67]

people just dont want to listen when its costing them more money, but it will probably cost them more in the long run

 

[DavieA]

Yeah but Kevin the customers happy to spend the xtra but was just questioning why no one else metioed it so ends up me looking stupid and not knowing what im talking about:mad2:

 

[Daz]

If he's happy to consider it, then send him to this forum and tell him to search on "decoupling membrane". Let him do his own research so that when he realises that the decoupler is a safety feature that will ensure the long life of his tile installation, you will have no issues.

Good luck.

However, I have experienced a number of Dural ci failures recently which have cost me significant financial losses, so I have stopped recommending it on my jobs. This is a personal choice and by no means a recommendation.

Daz

 

[redlee]

However, I have experienced a number of Dural ci failures recently which have cost me significant financial losses, so I have stopped recommending it on my jobs. This is a personal choice and by no means a recommendation.

Daz

I'm aware of a failure locally that they have stood the cost of (not one of my jobs) are you using an alternative decoupler?

 

[DavieA]

In what way are the installations failing?

 

[redlee]

In what way are the installations failing?

The one i mentioned is matting lifting away from substrate on an ufh screed - could be for one of many reasons but the matting suppliers have paid for the remedial work.

 

[andy-p]

I recently looked at looked at a kitchen floor with a wet ufh , the tiles are travertine and have been down for about 6 years and there are cracks everywhere , no decoupling membrane was fitted...

 

[DavieA]

Id of thought that as long as mat was bedded correctly to sub using a flexible adhesive that it would be of benefit but of course if the mats not bedded correctly then your in trouble.
Think I'd still use it as benefits are good, i think:lol:

 

[grumpygrouter]

I think the failures have been Dural specific when reported on the forums. Anyone heard of similar failures from Ditra?

 

[Stewart]

I think the failures have been Dural specific when reported on the forums. Anyone heard of similar failures from Ditra?

The failures are industry wide barring Scluter.... Dural are the only one's taking responsibility for their problem and fixing their failures.....

 

[DavieA]

So how are Dural repairing these, full reinstall if all specs and procedures have been followed? Wonder if a Dural redesign may be on the cards?

 

[Stewart]

The failures are noticeable by walking over the tiled floor and it sounds like your walking on broken glass under the tiles with a noticeable crunching.

It's caused by the plastic delaminating from the fleece backing, so prematurely decoupling. If the fleece backing has come away from the adhesive on the substrate, then this is down to incorrect fixing methods.

Dural have a fix for their failures and have developed a newly designs mat, which is on the Market now. Under no circumstances use the old Dural mat. Other companies such as Genesis have pulled their mat with no support for failures as yet that I'm aware of.

 

[Thespanishtiler]

Dave made me aware of this issue and I have been to visit all my customers for the last 12 months where Dural or G mat has been used.

pleased to say they are all ok, but non where over wet ufh.

Is the de-laminating problem isolated to wet ufh jobs or all installs ?

would be interested to find out.

 

[Stewart]

Dave made me aware of this issue and I have been to visit all my customers for the last 12 months where Dural or G mat has been used.

pleased to say they are all ok, but non where over wet ufh.

Is the de-laminating problem isolated to wet ufh jobs or all installs ?

would be interested to find out.

Electric ufh and timber for me Spanish. I was told the problem floors are ment to show within six month. After that you should be ok.

 

[Thespanishtiler]

cheers stuart,

I always lay hb boards before fixing the ci and use a highly modified c2 s1 (leaderflex) mixed on the soft slumpy side with a 6mm trowel and have a Kd mat roller so am happy i cover all bases but its still a bit worrying.

spanish

 

[Stewart]

cheers stuart,

I always lay hb boards before fixing the ci and use a highly modified c2 s1 (leaderflex) mixed on the soft slumpy side with a 6mm trowel and have a Kd mat roller so am happy i cover all bases but its still a bit worrying.

spanish

Me too, which is why it's so annoying when the actual mat fails.....

 

[Daz]

I've had genuine Dural ci mat failures and, yes, Dural are covering the cost of their team to effect a repair. They are not covering the cost for me to:
a) make further site visits to asses the initial problem
b) attend site to ensure a satisfactory fix takes place (customer relations, too)
c) attend site 3 days later to grout all the holes that the Dural team have left
d) make further visits when another part of the floor has failed
e) see b & c above again
f) make even more site visits to sign off the work carried out during the 3rd repair area

and so the chain continues to repeat until the whole floor area has been injected. I've lost countless days, fuel cost, phone calls, materials etc to keep a happy customer due to a manufacturer failure.

One particular customer has spent over £85k on having a hand made kitchen installed so it is not an option for him to have it all taken out, the floor re-done and then kitchen re-installed but it's really affecting my business to keep him a happy customer.

 

[DavieA]

I've only used mat a few times and always layed with keraflex mosaic troweled and go over with grout float to ensure coverage. You guys have more experience with this than me but do you think guys an appropriate method of fixing?

How to tell between new mat and old?

 

[Stewart]

I've had genuine Dural ci mat failures and, yes, Dural are covering the cost of their team to effect a repair. They are not covering the cost for me to:
a) make further site visits to asses the initial problem
b) attend site to ensure a satisfactory fix takes place (customer relations, too)
c) attend site 3 days later to grout all the holes that the Dural team have left
d) make further visits when another part of the floor has failed
e) see b & c above again
f) make even more site visits to sign off the work carried out during the 3rd repair area

and so the chain continues to repeat until the whole floor area has been injected. I've lost countless days, fuel cost, phone calls, materials etc to keep a happy customer due to a manufacturer failure.

One particular customer has spent over £85k on having a hand made kitchen installed so it is not an option for him to have it all taken out, the floor re-done and then kitchen re-installed but it's really affecting my business to keep him a happy customer.

I've had genuine Dural ci mat failures and, yes, Dural are covering the cost of their team to effect a repair. They are not covering the cost for me to:
a) make further site visits to asses the initial problem
b) attend site to ensure a satisfactory fix takes place (customer relations, too)
c) attend site 3 days later to grout all the holes that the Dural team have left
d) make further visits when another part of the floor has failed
e) see b & c above again
f) make even more site visits to sign off the work carried out during the 3rd repair area

and so the chain continues to repeat until the whole floor area has been injected. I've lost countless days, fuel cost, phone calls, materials etc to keep a happy customer due to a manufacturer failure.

One particular customer has spent over £85k on having a hand made kitchen installed so it is not an option for him to have it all taken out, the floor re-done and then kitchen re-installed but it's really affecting my business to keep him a happy customer.

Same situation for me Daz..... Ongoing discussions with Gerrard!

 

[Daz]

My customer has written a letter to Gerard to explain the situation, so we'll wait and see. Either way, I'm very reluctant to specify a decoupler for the foreseeable future.

 

[Spud]

I am not using decouplers at all at the moment as we have had multiple floor failures with it using Genesis and Blanke matting we have covered the cost on most of the jobs(a supplier covered the cost on one which was fair of them) which has cost us thousands in labour and materials ,I will not be using any matting on my work

 

[DavieA]

Wow really, so you think there's more of a risk with the mat rather than without? That's worrying when Tilers with you guys experience are talking of failures and not using decouplers again.

What about Ditra anyone recommend or have experience with?

 

[hillhead]

I have floors fitted direct to screed all over the country here with no problems !
That includes a lot of marble too.
People here don't want the extra expense of de coupling.
So lucky for me i guess.
I have used ditra quite a bit though in bathrooms etc.

 

[Spud]

not heard anything about failures with ditra except when there has been excess deflection is the floor solid ?

 

[DHTiling]

I've had genuine Dural ci mat failures and, yes, Dural are covering the cost of their team to effect a repair. They are not covering the cost for me to:
a) make further site visits to asses the initial problem
b) attend site to ensure a satisfactory fix takes place (customer relations, too)
c) attend site 3 days later to grout all the holes that the Dural team have left
d) make further visits when another part of the floor has failed
e) see b & c above again
f) make even more site visits to sign off the work carried out during the 3rd repair area

and so the chain continues to repeat until the whole floor area has been injected. I've lost countless days, fuel cost, phone calls, materials etc to keep a happy customer due to a manufacturer failure.

One particular customer has spent over £85k on having a hand made kitchen installed so it is not an option for him to have it all taken out, the floor re-done and then kitchen re-installed but it's really affecting my business to keep him a happy customer.

Well.. i have had no response from Dural in nearly 2 month to a failure...and if i get treat the way as finishing off like you have then Dural will get a FULL public slagging from me.. whether they like it or not..

This is a major manufacture problem and needs to be sorted ASAP IMO.. so watch this space as i am about to contact said failure customer to see how it has gone after 2 months since the first failure report to dural..( might be a bit longer than that)..???

 

[andy-p]

This is all very interesting , i never realised that there was any issues fitting d/c mats , has there been any issues with membranes fixed to walls ? I have been using PCI's Pecalstic and so far no problems but this is making me seriously reconsider using mats , this is a major issue here and i hope we can get answers soon from the manufacturers..

 

[DavieA]

I agree never realised there were issues with d/c mats and am now considering what to do for upcoming job. Anyone able to offer there thoughts? There's been mention of failures on screeds but next job is as follows
22 mm chipboard overlayed with 15 mm ply to ensure floor is deflection free.
Tiles are Travertine opus mix.
Adhesive is mapei keraflex.

Floor is about 35 m2 so will cost me dear if twas to fail.

To decouple or not to decouple is the question?

 

[DHTiling]

Guys.. the issue is not how you stick them down, the top polythylene layer is separating from the fleece.. this is a manufacture problem last year and 1000's of mtrs of fixers work has delaminated from the fleece... Personally the way i feel i do not want to use this type of membrane again.. i have zero confidence in them now..

if i feel the need for an anti crack membrane then it will be mapetex or maybe pecilastic..

 

[DavieA]

That days a lot Dave, cheers. Would you recommend anti crack membranes mapetex or pecilastic? Only I've never come across them. Take it there a decoupler just different manufacturer?

 

[DHTiling]

These are single layer anti crack membranes and cannot split away like Dural etc..