Underfloor heating/issue with builder

[thickbed]

Hi everyone
please can you share your thoughts on this. I received this email from the project manager/contractor from this job we completed a while ago:

Dear Mike,
I was contacted by customer as the under floor heating that youinstalled in his bathroom in September 2014 had stopped working. I did some tests and found that the cable was open circuit.
Today, the specialists from XXXX came in and located the problem which was a failure of the termination at the end of the cable. It clearly states in the installation instructions that the termination must not be covered by tape and must be encased in levelling compound or tile adhesive.
As you had covered the termination in masking tape this is not a warranty issue but an installer error and a charge of £300 + VAT has been incurred.
Full photographic evidence is available and customer has the damaged termination.
The evidence is irrefutable and as the installer, you are liable for this cost, £360.00. The bank details are as follows: end of message.

Mat was not supplied by me
At no point had I been contacted about this issue apart from this email
Mat was embedded in levelling compound and tiled correctly with the correct gear

Please let me know your thoughts
Many thanks
Mike

 

[J Sid]

ask for a photo of this tape covered terminalisation and a copy of the repair report and bill. There will be.

 

[Dumbo]

Had exact same problem with thermonet .
Never had any other failures

 

[One Day]

No proof, no liability. Ask for the proof.

And in future, photograph your installation and attach photos of the critical parts with your invoice...

 

[One Day]

Why aren't they charging you for the replacement tiling? 360 seems pretty good to me.

 

[Dan]

Tell them without them informing you of the fault at any stage before now you can't pay any bill.

They needed to have given you the chance to inspect and repair (or not) and not just go ahead and get it fixed.

You can't buy a brand new Volkswagen and take it to Mercedes to get a repair done and send VW the bill.

The world doesn't work like that.

 

[thickbed]

I have only ever had 2 other problems both of which were manufacturer faults but they were sorted by me at no cost to the customer. cold joins had shorted. I would have happily gone and investigated the problem if he had called me when it stopped working. If I'm the installer then surely I should be notified. Anyway just seems pretty odd that it was the termination join.
Mike

 

[Dumbo]

I have only ever had 2 other problems both of which were manufacturer faults but they were sorted by me at no cost to the customer. cold joins had shorted. I would have happily gone and investigated the problem if he had called me when it stopped working. If I'm the installer then surely I should be notified. Anyway just seems pretty odd that it was the termination join.
Mike

As I said i had exactly the same problem with thermonet .

 

[hmtiling]

As Dan said you need to be given opportunity to rectify problem yourself. They now haven't got a leg to stand on legally.
As impish says £360 is cheap for that repair. Sounds fishy to me!

 

[thickbed]

Thanks for your replies, the contractor is now threatening legal action if I don't pay the invoice. He has sent me the pics of the repair and honestly don't believe that by masking tape the termination joint it would burn out like that. The installation instructions actually say that any lose wires can be hot glue gunned or masking taped down. Anyway here is the pic

 

[Tile Shop]

If the instructions said it, and you did it then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. If it goes to court, all you have to do is take a copy of the instructions in and show them.

Whats the make of the heating?

 

[thickbed]

thanks Paul C I would rather not say at this time

 

[One Day]

He can't take legal action as you he gave you no option to repair it.
Because he fixed it without giving you the chance to put it right, this is classed as acceptance.
Honestly, you're safe no matter what he tries to do now.

For the record; I have installed countless brands of ufh and I don't recall any which don't stress the need to completely cover the tail ends in adhesive or slc.
I normally tape the crimped TIP down but make sure the actual tail is covered. I've had zero problems in 11yrs.

 

[Uheat - Jake]

We'd never recommend to cover the joint in a masking tape or any tape as it can cause excessive heat in the joint. It could be that the joint was loose which has created heat and caused the cable to burn out as it isn't a secure connection. We always recommend to put our cold tails into a conduit and bury the conduit in a 15mm channel in the floor, before being self levelled.

 

[One Day]

...sorry not "acceptance". I meant "affirmation of contract"

 

[thickbed]

Taken from their installation instructions:


Once in position, remove the backing from the adhesive


tape attached to the underside of your mat/s and secure

to your base (fig 5). Any loose cable or mesh can be

secured by using a hot glue gun or masking tape.

 

[One Day]

No special mention of the tail anywhere?

 

[One Day]

I cut and paste what you posted into Google. If it's the manufacturer i think it is, page 3 says make sure everything is covered in adhesive, or screed.

I think you misunderstood 'secured' with the need to cover...

 

[thickbed]

Thanks impish
Yes it does say that but how would you secure it without covering it (if using tape)

 

[thickbed]

surely double sided tape would be best?

 

[thickbed]

When I spoke to their tech chap this afternoon, he said using masking tape is fine as long as you don't form a "tent" when you apply the tape

 

[Flintstone]

Which is what you have done!

 

[thickbed]

Correct me if I'm wrong but with the loose wire system, don't some manufacturers supply the installer with duct tape to run along the entire length of the cable? Surely this will leave voids and possibly overheat? How is this different?

Mike

 

[Dan]

In this case it doesn't really matter. The customer has repaired the issue without allowing you to.

The correct way to go about it is report the problem to you if they thought you were the one to blame which gives you the opportunity to sort the issue out and not incur costs.

 

[radim]

Who did take this picture?
Could be of any wire instalation in the UK.
Why did they go ahead with repair without contacting you is beyond my understanding. Keep copy of all communication.

 

[Andy Allen]

Correct me if I'm wrong but with the loose wire system, don't some manufacturers supply the installer with duct tape to run along the entire length of the cable? Surely this will leave voids and possibly overheat? How is this different?

Mike

It's not duct tape.....it's like the scrim tape plasterer use......at least the last one I did was..

 

[thickbed]

These are the other pics

 

[thickbed]

These pics were taken by the guys who did the repair, someone still needs to go and replace the 2 tiles they ripped up.

 

[thickbed]

It's not duct tape.....it's like the scrim tape plasterer use......at least the last one I did was..

The last loose wire system I laid (admittedly it was a few years ago now) they supplied a thinner strip of duct tape to be run along the length of the wire to secure it down

 

[Dumbo]

thanks Paul C I would rather not say at this time

I don't why . They given you what they think is a legitimate reason for failure so why not say . As I said I had exact same problem with thermonet .

 

[One Day]

I have always tried to keep the tape as tight as possible to the cable. Avoid any air pockets around the tails (and joints on bespoke cables).

Picture of a recent job shows how I've just stuck the tip of the tail down to stop it curling up, but the main body is set down in cut out thermal board.
(you'll probably need to click and zoom!)