Underfloor heating/issue with builder
- Thread starter thickbed
- Start date
O
One Day
I love installing it. Sad but true!
D
Dumbo
Still want to know what mat
What was the outcome ?
O
One Day
Nope. Can't be 100%. But I believe that the cables aren't the weak spots.
Tails and joints are. It's stressed by all manufacturers that those must be embedded.
I always flood my cables (and occasional mats) with slc which is a safer bet than adhesive straight on. Far fewer air pockets - tape or no tape I guess.
Agreed I also always use levelling compound which is why I cant seem to get my head around why this has happened
D
Dumbo
Main contractor who supplied heat mat paid for repair but asked me to go and replace Tile which I did . But until you have one of these situations you don't realise how critical some aspects of it are . Personally where possible I am going the use the system where the wires push into membrane to limit the amount of tape used like the Variopro system
I am thinking that these are the sequence of event:
The UFH has failed.
The customer has contacted the builder.
The builder has contacted the UFH company.
The UFH company has given the builder the number of a person than can seek and repair the damage. If the damage is caused by a faulty cable then the UFH company will bear the cost of the repair.
The repair man has located the problem, removed the tile/tiles and made the repair. The repair man is independent and impartial.
He has identified that the problem is due to the end of the cable getting too hot and the glue has melted on the end cover. The end of the cable must be encased in tile adhesive or SLC. The adhesive and SLC draws away the heat from the cable. If there is a pocket of air around the termination block then the heat generated by the cable is not drawn away quick enough.
The repair man has tested the cable and found that the problem is caused by the installer - sorry.
The repair man gives the bill to the builder.
It seems to me that the builder thought that the problem must be down to a faulty cable but got a shock when he was given the bill (he got the bill because he contacted the UFH company).
In my opinion the builder should have contacted you as you had installed the cable. You would then have rung the UFH company and you would have been given a bill of £360.
The chances are that you would not have found the fault by yourself and you would have had to call in the experts anyway.
The builder has learned a lesson............a lesson that has cost him £360 !!!
You either split the difference with the builder or let this run and run.
The UFH has failed.
The customer has contacted the builder.
The builder has contacted the UFH company.
The UFH company has given the builder the number of a person than can seek and repair the damage. If the damage is caused by a faulty cable then the UFH company will bear the cost of the repair.
The repair man has located the problem, removed the tile/tiles and made the repair. The repair man is independent and impartial.
He has identified that the problem is due to the end of the cable getting too hot and the glue has melted on the end cover. The end of the cable must be encased in tile adhesive or SLC. The adhesive and SLC draws away the heat from the cable. If there is a pocket of air around the termination block then the heat generated by the cable is not drawn away quick enough.
The repair man has tested the cable and found that the problem is caused by the installer - sorry.
The repair man gives the bill to the builder.
It seems to me that the builder thought that the problem must be down to a faulty cable but got a shock when he was given the bill (he got the bill because he contacted the UFH company).
In my opinion the builder should have contacted you as you had installed the cable. You would then have rung the UFH company and you would have been given a bill of £360.
The chances are that you would not have found the fault by yourself and you would have had to call in the experts anyway.
The builder has learned a lesson............a lesson that has cost him £360 !!!
You either split the difference with the builder or let this run and run.
Hi Sean Kelly
Pretty much spot on although if I was notified in the first instance, I would of gone in with my sparky( have done 2 of these in the past and have been compensated as it was a manufacturing fault ) and if it definitely was below tiles. started with taking up the tile with the cold join beneath it and if it wasn't that joint then move on to the end tail (termination join) At this point if we couldn't get it working, I would have called in the proffessionals and would have paid them to sort it. There are only 2 joints in any one mat, 99% of the time if it fails, it will fail there.
Pretty much spot on although if I was notified in the first instance, I would of gone in with my sparky( have done 2 of these in the past and have been compensated as it was a manufacturing fault ) and if it definitely was below tiles. started with taking up the tile with the cold join beneath it and if it wasn't that joint then move on to the end tail (termination join) At this point if we couldn't get it working, I would have called in the proffessionals and would have paid them to sort it. There are only 2 joints in any one mat, 99% of the time if it fails, it will fail there.
Martyn Leeds
TF
How much work does this builder bloke give you?
Also does anyone know what this means- it was one of the notes on the bottom of the report
Resistance reading less than 999Mohms of heating element to braid (or earth) indicates heating element
insulation damage. Heating cable in working order although low resistance reading may deteriorate and cause future
failure. Fault location not attempted with element to braid (or earth) resistance above 10Mohms due to risk of damage
to heating cable. IEE Wiring Regulations require minimum insulation value of 1Mohm for general supply wiring
Resistance reading less than 999Mohms of heating element to braid (or earth) indicates heating element
insulation damage. Heating cable in working order although low resistance reading may deteriorate and cause future
failure. Fault location not attempted with element to braid (or earth) resistance above 10Mohms due to risk of damage
to heating cable. IEE Wiring Regulations require minimum insulation value of 1Mohm for general supply wiring
They put a high voltage through the mat and used thermal imaging to detect the fault so I assume the original failure didn't look as bad as it did but by sending a high voltage through the mat it explodes at the weakest point and in this case was my taped over end join. Is this right ?
O
Old Mod
If I'm correct, they take a resistance reading between the cable core and the outer braid. (The metal strands that surround the core and core insulation.)
It has to be a certain value to ensure proper insulation is present.
Get @Dan to link this thread to the sparks forum, they should be able to answer your questions.
If there was a break in the cable it would have been showing open circuit on the multimeter.
This is a common way to find a fault with the heating element, it's a very complicated procedure especially if you don't know where the fault is.
@thickbed can I assume that if we are still going on about this now, that they did indeed contact you before they went ahead with the repair and you refused to go look at the job or said it wasn't your job to or something and now you're just trying to pass the blame?
Reason I say this is because if you didn't have the chance to repair a fault of yours, or at least be involved in agreeing whether repair costs are appropriate, it's not something you need to carry on worrying about.
And you keep skipping past me pointing this fact out.
So I'm starting to think you perhaps did have the opportunity but avoided it maybe?
If that is the case, just split the bill with the builder and swallow your pride and move on.
But don't wriggle out of it.
Perhaps go on a UFH installation course and learn about it. Or avoid installing it in the future.
Reason I say this is because if you didn't have the chance to repair a fault of yours, or at least be involved in agreeing whether repair costs are appropriate, it's not something you need to carry on worrying about.
And you keep skipping past me pointing this fact out.
So I'm starting to think you perhaps did have the opportunity but avoided it maybe?
If that is the case, just split the bill with the builder and swallow your pride and move on.
But don't wriggle out of it.
Perhaps go on a UFH installation course and learn about it. Or avoid installing it in the future.
Don't know why you now assume that I was contacted before the repair had taken place and trying to get out of it, the first I knew of this situation was the email from the builder asking for me to pay the repair guys. He went ahead and got the repair done without me knowing about it.
I am still gobsmacked that he has gone about it in this way-why not phone me first.
The reason I am going on about it still is that I am now starting to question the verdict of the repair guys. I honestly believe that by putting some masking tape over a join, it would cause it to burn out. From what I can see in the picture that has been sent to me by the builder the tape around the join was tight to it and was encapsulated in levelling compound afterwards and then tiled over.
I have spoken to a few sparkies about this and all of them say this is near impossible to happen. Anyway all of this is irrelevant because the builder has not contacted me in the first instance.
Who is going to replace the 2 tiles and whoever that person is, are they then responsible for the floor?
Think that was a bit of a low blow suggesting I go on a UFH course. I have done hundreds of UFH installs and this is the first one that I have been blamed for and I want to know why!
The builder has given me to this Friday to pay his bill or he will take it to court
Mike
Hi Mike,
Apologies if I touched a nerve. Didn't meant to, that's for sure. We're here to help.
He doesn't have a leg to stand on in court. So go, and present your case, he'll end up paying court costs. Don't avoid going though, he'll automatically win.
Simply say you'd have been more than happy to repair the UFH and the tiles as a result, but as you were neither consulted or offered the chance to repair yourself at your own costs, which you're quite capable of organising, you are simply not liable to pay somebody else's bill to which you had no control over the value of.
In fairness, if I were you, I'd split the costs and walk away with your head held high.
It's 180. Stick it through your business as an expense and offset it against your tax bill and it works out even less. If you're VAT registered claim your % of the vat back and it's even less. And in the long run if the word gets around (and you don't get the opportunity to have your say) locally, it'll cost you more in possible lost business.
Apologies if I touched a nerve. Didn't meant to, that's for sure. We're here to help.
He doesn't have a leg to stand on in court. So go, and present your case, he'll end up paying court costs. Don't avoid going though, he'll automatically win.
Simply say you'd have been more than happy to repair the UFH and the tiles as a result, but as you were neither consulted or offered the chance to repair yourself at your own costs, which you're quite capable of organising, you are simply not liable to pay somebody else's bill to which you had no control over the value of.
In fairness, if I were you, I'd split the costs and walk away with your head held high.
It's 180. Stick it through your business as an expense and offset it against your tax bill and it works out even less. If you're VAT registered claim your % of the vat back and it's even less. And in the long run if the word gets around (and you don't get the opportunity to have your say) locally, it'll cost you more in possible lost business.
S
Spare Tool
I disagree Dan, I think he'll walk out of court head held high when he wins his case, not by splitting the £360 with the builder.
So say a tile had cracked and the builder didn't contact the installer, instead he flicked through the yellow pages and ended up picking @impish to do the repair...imp hits the builder with £500 bill for his half a day 😉 the builder then expects the installer to pay that bill, even though he was quite capable of changing the tile himself...its not on and the builder's only got himself to blame!!
So say a tile had cracked and the builder didn't contact the installer, instead he flicked through the yellow pages and ended up picking @impish to do the repair...imp hits the builder with £500 bill for his half a day 😉 the builder then expects the installer to pay that bill, even though he was quite capable of changing the tile himself...its not on and the builder's only got himself to blame!!
Oh no I'm totally down that way of thinking mate read my posts in this thread it has only been me banging on about that fact.
But the OP keeps coming back with more 'what ifs' and so i thought if he's fighting it like that he won't make himself look cool locally. So just pay some or whatever to keep the cool.
But yeah I'd cut the builder out, and explain to the customer the situation and ignore the builder directly and wait for the hearing.
But the OP keeps coming back with more 'what ifs' and so i thought if he's fighting it like that he won't make himself look cool locally. So just pay some or whatever to keep the cool.
But yeah I'd cut the builder out, and explain to the customer the situation and ignore the builder directly and wait for the hearing.
O
One Day
I don't charge half days. 10 mins or 8hrs. All the same to me...!
M
mache
So just as a matter of interest how many people installing electric UFH cables after reading this thread will tweak just a little how they install. even if its just to tape either side of the cold termination rather than directly over it ?? I'm just DIY and curious but it did make me think back on how I installed by bathroom mat. (I then remembered that I had used the hot clue technique)
There are similar tiling threads here
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