tiing on green screed

[huckin]

hi lads is there a adesive that can be used on a greed screed thats suitable for stone

 

[wakes]

When you say geen screed how long as it been down??

 

[White Room]

What stone will you be fixing....

 

[Peter]

Would be better just Ditra'ing over it.

 

[wakes]

i disagree there wingn. if its a green screed and not fully dry then covering with ditra
the screed may never dry as screed needs air to breath and dry so will break up over time.

 

[White Room]

Ditra will allow moisture out due to fluting on the under side of the matt.....

 

[wakes]

imo you never tile on a screed until it is fully dry. ditra is just hiding the problem that may occur.
The fluting as you say may allow a small amount of air flow but with the condensation that will
accur under the matting the screed will never dry properly.

try this on a new screed after 2 weeks of being laid, put a cup, plant pot, bucket, anything you like
and i garentee if the screed is not fully dry there will be a moisture mark on the screed.
So by covering over with ditra you are just masking a problem waiting to happen.

 

[Peter]

Schluter may go back to the drawing board then, they're obviously wrong.

 

[wakes]

are you a rep for DITRA??? screed will not dry properly whilst coverd.
if you let a screed dry properly uncoverd and aired why would you want to use ditra?
or maybe to rush a job when you aint got much work.

I would say NEVER tile on a screed until its fully dry. then you dont need to cover things up
and you know youve done a proper job.

 

[Ajax123]

i disagree there wingn. if its a green screed and not fully dry then covering with ditra
the screed may never dry as screed needs air to breath and dry so will break up over time.

Thats not correct. Sand cement screed dries via two mechanisms and requires moisture to undergo hydration of the cement. Te first mechanism of course is evaporation which should occur at a controlled relatively slow rate. The second is the hydration reaction itself which chemically binds the water into new molecules. Covering with ditra is a great way to trap the residual moisture so that the screed can gain strength and properly harden. If you want it to dry the first thing you should does cure it under a polythene sheet for at least seven days. Sand cement screed do not generally break down as a resultof exposure to moisture unless there is chemical contamination e.g. Chlorides or sulphates. Breaking up ver time would generally suggest the opposite of moisture retention I.e. over rapid drying of the screed leading to poor and incomplete hydration of the cement. Alternatively it might suggest a lack of compaction which is probably the most common cause of failure in sand cement screed.

Im not a big fan of green screed tiling simply because the screed can have a tendenc to shrink and crack causing a potential failure of adhesion or cracking tiles.

Anhydrite screed on the other had does not need curing as it is self curing. It works on a different principal. However exposure to moisture is still n likely to cause a break down although there will be a loss of mechanical robustness if it is saturated. If it is exposed to ish levels of moisture or long term exposure over several years then some gypsum swelling can occur but it still remains hard. It does not like to be damp primarily because when itis damp it is almost impossible to get a cement based compound to stick to it.

 

[Ajax123]

imo you never tile on a screed until it is fully dry. ditra is just hiding the problem that may occur.
The fluting as you say may allow a small amount of air flow but with the condensation that will
accur under the matting the screed will never dry properly.

Ditra matting as with most other plastics is not opaque to the passage of moisture. Also the fabric of the building will allow the passage of moisture. Ditra helps to control the rate at which moisture migrates to the surface. This will happen very slowly and the screed will eventually dry regardless of what is on top. The entrapment of moisture is not its primary function. It is designed to allow for differential movement between the screed and the adhesive such that the interfaces between the elements are not disrupted.

i do agree that the screed should be properly dry prior to tiling. However if it is not properly dried there are mechanisms to cope with the situation.

 

[cam_low]

cracking thread this [MENTION=12267]Ajax123[/MENTION] 😉

 

[Ajax123]

I get frustrated when I see people making statements. Know t be wrong. I can't help myself ... I must type .... 🙂

 

[wakes]

If a screed is fully dry as it should be prior to tiling the there is no need to use all
that expensive ditra. my statement is is not wrong!!! Tile on a fully dry screed and you should not have
a problem. and no extra cost to you or the customer.

 

[White Room]

If a screed is fully dry as it should be prior to tiling the there is no need to use all
that expensive ditra. my statement is is not wrong!!! Tile on a fully dry screed and you should not have
a problem. and no extra cost to you or the customer.

Trouble is most customer want it done now and don't want the wait, theres allways Bal green screed adhesive as well.

 

[wakes]

exposure over several years then some gypsum swelling can occur but it still remains hard. It does not like to be damp primarily because when itis damp it is almost impossible to get a cement based compound to stick to it

Read more: http://www.tilersforums.com/tiling-forum/64155-tiing-green-screed.html#ixzz2EDaXyTuS

Enough said on a green screed as above said by the technical expert!!

 

[Ajax123]

If a screed is fully dry as it should be prior to tiling the there is no need to use all
that expensive ditra. my statement is is not wrong!!! Tile on a fully dry screed and you should not have
a problem. and no extra cost to you or the customer.

Your statement about screed needing air to breath and it falling apart over time due to moisture is wrong.... Sorry but it simply is.

Some things to consider

the need for ditra or any other form of uncoupling depends on many factors other than the moisture content of the screed. You are right that the screed should be properly dry... I will not argue with that. Unfortunately time constraints on a project dictTe it might not be. technical constraints often mean it wont be properly tested so often the tiler wont know one way or theother. additionally the screed should also be sound, clean and free from other defects likely to cause a failure of adhesion. They should be fully compacted, correctly laid with joints at appropriate points and of the correct mix ratios and depth. Problem is they do not always (maybe read often instead of always) meet these requirements and uncoupling is a means of overcoming some of these issues. Also the need for uncoupling is dependent on the tile type and joint configuration and whether the screed is heated or unheated. BS 5385 says that natural stone tiles on heated screeds should be uncoupled. Ditra satisfies this requirement. Tile bay sizes can be effectively increased by using uncoupling. Cement screeds are notoriously unstable whether suitably dry or not....bear in mind they will never be totally dry .... And whilst moisture is present cement will continue to hydrate and hydration causes shrinkage. This places horizontal stresses on the screed matrix and in the long term causes cracking. Ditra will overcome this.

Where I do get very frustrated with the use of uncoupling membranes is the insistence that they are a requirement on anhydrite screeds. For various reasons there is far less of a need with these type of screeds especially if you use gypsum based tile adhesives....(awaits the fall out)

whichever way you look at it whilst they may not be essential in all cases they satisfy a need within the market to overcome the issues that are often beyond the control of the tiler and really let us say a client is building a 100m2 house. This is likely to cost well over a hundred grand ... The tiles alone can cost ten grand. Is an outlay of another 600quid for ditra really going to break the bank....

- - - Updated - - -

exposure over several years then some gypsum swelling can occur but it still remains hard. It does not like to be damp primarily because when itis damp it is almost impossible to get a cement based compound to stick to it

Read more: http://www.tilersforums.com/tiling-forum/64155-tiing-green-screed.html#ixzz2EDaXyTuS

Enough said on a green screed as above said by the technical expert!!

would not use green screed adhesive on anhydrite screed....

 

[Ajax123]

hi lads is there a adesive that can be used on a greed screed thats suitable for stone

Of course none of the debate answers the question..... The answer is yes there is but it may not tobe the most appropriate method of fixing.

 

[wakes]

Ajax i can't quite see where i said it would fall apart??? All i said was in a shell I dont agree
with tiling on a screed that isnt fully dry. thank you for your scientific side to the question.

At least we agree that tiling on a green(not fully dry) screed isnt the way forward but according
to your very indepth report it is possible.

May i say i wont't be using ditra on a screed floor just for the sake of a few days to tile
on a sound floor that doesnt require any extra work!!!

 

[Ajax123]

i disagree there wingn. if its a green screed and not fully dry then covering with ditra
the screed may never dry as screed needs air to breath and dry so will break up over time.

Just here mate.

 

[bugs183]

I've just been on the Schluter Substrates course and they certainly recommend the use of Ditra on green cement screeds, and say themselves that the amount of moisture trapped in the screed is not huge as the chemical reaction uses a good percentage up, and that the residual will escape through the flutings.
yes it does incuur extra cost but if on a limited time scale then this would save a project weeks of delay.

 

[huckin]

ok thanks for your comments i knew about bal green screed but thats no good with travatine as is only avaible in grey. i think i will tell the customer im not willing to do the job until is dry.

 

[Peter]

If its travertine you're better laying with Ditra anyway, regardless of how long the screed has been down.

 

[afright]

Have used Bal green screed a few times, but just a question would you use green screed adhesive to stick the ditra down if not what adhesive could you use on a green screed in conjunction with the ditra?