5th job Blues....am I a rouge tiler......?

[1111]

Hey all, - Apologies for this long post..!

I have just recently completed a bathroom job, about 17sqm full tiles around a shower area and half tiled round the rest of the bathroom .

The tiles were small 15cm sq budget homebase(customer bought them) tiles and aluminnium trim.

So as a bit of background - I live in the highlands and have been tiling for family and friends for a while, I recently lost my job after 5 years with BT due to a bad career move and decided to try and set out on my own - I attended a tiling course in Newbury and started to advertise to try and drum up business.

I have completed 4 jobs now sucessfully (although slowly 3 floors and 1 small kitchen) with all customers happy.
I started this last bathroom job and said I would be completed within 4 days, the customers got the walls done in ply (5mm?) by another local tiler who was too busy to do the job, when I arrived the walls were out of level by upto 6mm in places but I assumed I'd be able to build them up with adh. I spend time setting out and knew where my first and last tiles were going and set out my window recess - I offered to use backerboard or tank the shower unit which the customer didnt want.

I decided to use BAL Rapidset and BAL microban grout to ensure a good job.

My first problem came with the level - It was really slowing me down and I just couldnt get them perferct leaving some tiles slightly low - although lipping wasnt really visable - I ensured i kept my grout lines as clean as poss.

3 days in I was only 1/3 round the bathroom and the customers wife was getting anxious about my speed and I found myself trying to quicken, when it came to my tile trim I had a nightmare cutting the mitres as the walls were out? my externals were perfect but my internals didnt meet and there was a small 2mm gap in the corner of 1.

I didnt like leaving it but against my better judgement fell to the pressure of finishing the job, however when it came to my grouting it started off perfectly I used a Karl Dahm washboy and the finish was nice - but i started to see tiny bits of grey adh on the edge of the tiles - I tried to clean them up but the tiles were so soft that they chipped really easily and the vitrex scourers didnt remove it all.

So the upshot of all this is that the wife gave me full payment and a £30 tip? to which I thought she was happy - (although I wasnt) - her husband returned today (he works offshore) has cancelled the cheque and asked me round to point out all the faults (rightly so in my opinion) - he gave me another cheque with 50% off and said he's getting the 1st tiler back round to fix it all - and said he wouldnt bad mouth me as I was just starting up.

I feel like a fraud for not telling him I was new (the other tiler told him), as I live in such a small community (kick 1 and they all limp my dad says!) the other tiler would have given me work - but not now........

I really want to make this work for me and my family and feel I have pride in my work and just fell under pressure a bit on this job, but I have just turned down a job putting up mosaic tiles in a kitchen - because if I cant sort a normal bathroom with cheap tiles what sort of a job would i do with mosaics!

What am I supposed to do - I feel like a need to work alongside a tiler but dont have that option up here - when I go to jobs I'm supposed to be a professional - but experience only counts for that so do I tell customers I'm new and get another job outside of tiling to keep me going?

WOW - what a rant sorry folks - but i feel I've reached a stumbling block here and dont want to be a fraud - just want to do a good job!

Thanks

Anthony (1111)

 

[grumpygrouter]

Some tough lessons learned there Anthony. 1. don't take over work started by another tiler unless you are sure what has been done. 2. why would a "tiler" ply out bath and shower room walls with 5mm ply? Not a good idea in my opinion!
3. When you start out it takes way longer than you think. 4. did you check the walls for flatness before you commenced? 5, clean your grout lines as you go along, the adhesive comes off much easier!

Where in the highlands are you and who was the tiler that "didn't have time" to complete the job?

 

[alex1963]

anthony-there is nothing worse than a fussy customer to shatter your confidence-and the only way to get it back is to get back to work. tiling is an artistic trade and no job is ever 100% ,even after 22 years i still fault my own work,even if the customers are really happy. may be in future point out the problems to the customer( like walls out of square or level) and tell them you will do your best but it might not be perfect,that way their expectations might become more realistic and you may avoid these hassles at the end of the job.

 

[Sean Kelly]

Anthony, you come across as a decent chap. So put this down to experience. However, your customer and her Husband sound decent too. The only rouge person in your story is (in my opinion) the first tiler. It would be a right shame if he was let back into your customers house, as he would probably completely botch the job and then blame your workmanship. Is it possible to contact your customer, explain the situation, and warn them that the 1st tiler left the job with uneven walls, but due to your lack of experience you did not spot the unevenness. If this happened to me I would offer to fix the problem areas for £0. This would mean that you get a bit more experience, and hopefully the respect and future recommendations from your customer. As I said, your customers seem decent..........and you never know, they may write you out a cheque for the other 50%. Good luck.

 

[Gazzer]

out of level by 6mm and he used 5mm ply ??? jeeez and they want him back?

 

[mz30]

Hiya anthony,
Sound's like you have had a proper nightmare,but you are willing to rectify the problem,i like Sean Kelly would offer to fix the problem's they have at your own expense,i know it's not an ideal solution, but will maybe enhance your reputation as someone who will get the job right no matter what.

The one thing i will say to you,due to lack of experience you have walked into a job that the other tiler has left,never,ever take a job on if you have not prepped it yourself as i'm betting the reason he left it was that he was not sure he could do it himself(why anyone would ply walls is beyond me).

This is no slight on you in any way ,shape or form,but this is the reason i hate tiling courses so much,they send everyone out of them courses thinking they can tile the world and maybe they can but at the end of the day they give no instructions on what should and should'nt be tiled.
At the end of the day tiling a bay in a warehouse and tiling a bathroom are two diffrent thing's,and the day the goverment put's a stop to this will not be a day to soon.
Like i've said in the past i have had guy's who have taught these course's come on my job's and have been unable to keep up(or do as good a job)with apprentice's(and these guy's teach).

I honestly hope that you get payed the rest of your money and you learn a lesson from this job and prepare everything yourself in the future,remember if it's not right have the client get it made right,try not to get involved in anything but tiling.

Good luck
Mike

 

[1111]

Some tough lessons learned there Anthony. 1. don't take over work started by another tiler unless you are sure what has been done. 2. why would a "tiler" ply out bath and shower room walls with 5mm ply? Not a good idea in my opinion!
3. When you start out it takes way longer than you think. 4. did you check the walls for flatness before you commenced? 5, clean your grout lines as you go along, the adhesive comes off much easier!

Where in the highlands are you and who was the tiler that "didn't have time" to complete the job?

Hi Grumpy,

Feeling better after reading the reply's - The tiler said he always uses 5mm ply (I suggested 13mm exterior grade which he replied was unecessary) - I did check the walls and thought I could make up the differences with adh, what is acceptable to build 2mm / 3mm?

I tried to be really carefull with cleaning my grout lines as I went - but the buscuit on the tile was so thin that it seemed impossible! (Although obviously not for a pro) - I was tempted to use White Star but was taught to always mix your own if you can.

I live in Halkirk nr Thurso and the other tiler I spoke about is actually a joiner who does tiling on the side - his name is James Swanson and is local to the village - (Which worries me alot - due to bad mouthing....etc..)

Its a lesson certainly learnt - but I'm still unsure how to continue would you advise I tell future customers that I'm new at tiling and may be a bit slower?

AK......

 

[1111]

Hiya anthony,
Sound's like you have had a proper nightmare,but you are willing to rectify the problem,i like Sean Kelly would offer to fix the problem's they have at your own expense,i know it's not an ideal solution, but will maybe enhance your reputation as someone who will get the job right no matter what.

The one thing i will say to you,due to lack of experience you have walked into a job that the other tiler has left,never,ever take a job on if you have not prepped it yourself as i'm betting the reason he left it was that he was not sure he could do it himself(why anyone would ply walls is beyond me).

This is no slight on you in any way ,shape or form,but this is the reason i hate tiling courses so much,they send everyone out of them courses thinking they can tile the world and maybe they can but at the end of the day they give no instructions on what should and should'nt be tiled.
At the end of the day tiling a bay in a warehouse and tiling a bathroom are two diffrent thing's,and the day the goverment put's a stop to this will not be a day to soon.
Like i've said in the past i have had guy's who have taught these course's come on my job's and have been unable to keep up(or do as good a job)with apprentice's(and these guy's teach).

I honestly hope that you get payed the rest of your money and you learn a lesson from this job and prepare everything yourself in the future,remember if it's not right have the client get it made right,try not to get involved in anything but tiling.

Good luck
Mike

Thanks Mike and I agree with evrything you have said - I dont think tiling courses are wrong, but they certainly set your ability levels far higher than they actually are and almost fill you with a false sence of knowledge .

however for certain scenarios like my own - they gave me the Boost to get up and do it non the less - as I mentioned if a scenario was to come up where I could work along side a tiler up here that still paid my mortgage I'd take it .... but I'm 33 married with two kids - not 17 with years ahead to learn.

Would you suggest in future I ask the cutomer to level the walls - or is that a job I should be taking on..?


AK

 

[1111]

Anthony, you come across as a decent chap. So put this down to experience. However, your customer and her Husband sound decent too. The only rouge person in your story is (in my opinion) the first tiler. It would be a right shame if he was let back into your customers house, as he would probably completely botch the job and then blame your workmanship. Is it possible to contact your customer, explain the situation, and warn them that the 1st tiler left the job with uneven walls, but due to your lack of experience you did not spot the unevenness. If this happened to me I would offer to fix the problem areas for £0. This would mean that you get a bit more experience, and hopefully the respect and future recommendations from your customer. As I said, your customers seem decent..........and you never know, they may write you out a cheque for the other 50%. Good luck.

Hi Sean,

I was round first thing this morning - thanking the customer for giving me the opportunity to set it right , when he told me he didnt want me to rectify anything - As i was paying £44 for the adh (x2) £12 for the grout, and £12 per trim (x4) Ive ended up with less than £100 for 6 days work.

really non of that matters....but I feel I dont wanna stop kicking myself! for being so stupid:mad2:


AK

 

[grumpygrouter]

Anthony, I have not been tiling very long myself but one thing I was taught and this has been reiterated to me through this forum on numerous occasions is that ply is not a suitable substrate for tiling on to walls. There is far too much potential for movement due to moisture in the atmosphere. This is the reason that any reference to timber in bathrooms or other damp environs is always followed by consideration for Tanking.

I am not sure what you actually mean by the walls being 6mm out, is that 6mm dips or lumps in places or does the wall curve away?

Applying 5mm plywood will not straighten out a wall, it will only follow the curvature of the wall. It is normal to either straighten out any undulations by skimming with rapidset or dot and dab plasterboard/backerboard up instead.

As it is you would probaly have got away with 6mm if you had used an appropriately sized notched trowel as back buttering takes time as you have found out. The 15x15 tiles limits a little the amount of adhesive you can safely pack out with so you were stuck a little with te 6mm deviation.

By all means offer to put right what the customer thinks is wrong but I feel that you should explain to them that the initial preparation - not done by you - was inadequate and that the walls should have been correctly straightened, and not with plywood! Also, if you were actaully tiling onto ply, you shold have used a flexible adhesive.

The fact that the other "tiler" is in fact a joiner tells it's own story.

Apart from taking longer that you thought it would, I don't see you have done much wrong. Put it down to experience and move forward. Tell customers how long you have been tiling if they ask. If they don't ask, then they are not really bothered as long as they get a good job. I have never been asked prior to being given work but it has come up in conversation, and as yet has not caused me a problem.

Every job is a learning experience and I KNOW you won't make the same mistakes again. Don't get too down hearted, carry on doing what you are doing and put this behind you.

Keep reading the forums and let us know how you are getting on.

 

[mz30]

Hi anthony,

I personally will not touch nothing that is not pretty much spot on,on the other hand getting over bad thing's is also part of the learning process,if you have a backround in construction i would say that a tiling course maybe a little easier to absorb,like you said you are 33 and have to kid's and need to pay your mortgage ,tiling doesn't sound a great proposition at the moment does it?

While you can earn great money ,the chances of you earning it straight away are slim,not impossible but slim,especially with you saying you live in a small community.

At the end of the day we are quite similar,i am only a year older than you and my second child is on the way,but i have been tiling full time since i was 16yrs old and working part time between 14 and 16.

If you really want to tile my best advice to you would be to start small and gain confidence and experience,check the area you are tiling ,before agreeing a price and until you have more experience do not take on job's with a potential for disaster and my biggest advice do not get involved in anything but tiling as you open yourself up for headache after headache.

If you need any advice at all ,about anything to do with tiling,i will always be glad to give you my opinion.

Good luck for the future
Mike

 

[1111]

Anthony, I have not been tiling very long myself but one thing I was taught and this has been reiterated to me through this forum on numerous occasions is that ply is not a suitable substrate for tiling on to walls. There is far too much potential for movement due to moisture in the atmosphere. This is the reason that any reference to timber in bathrooms or other damp environs is always followed by consideration for Tanking.

I am not sure what you actually mean by the walls being 6mm out, is that 6mm dips or lumps in places or does the wall curve away?

Applying 5mm plywood will not straighten out a wall, it will only follow the curvature of the wall. It is normal to either straighten out any undulations by skimming with rapidset or dot and dab plasterboard/backerboard up instead.

As it is you would probaly have got away with 6mm if you had used an appropriately sized notched trowel as back buttering takes time as you have found out. The 15x15 tiles limits a little the amount of adhesive you can safely pack out with so you were stuck a little with te 6mm deviation.

By all means offer to put right what the customer thinks is wrong but I feel that you should explain to them that the initial preparation - not done by you - was inadequate and that the walls should have been correctly straightened, and not with plywood! Also, if you were actaully tiling onto ply, you shold have used a flexible adhesive.

The fact that the other "tiler" is in fact a joiner tells it's own story.

Apart from taking longer that you thought it would, I don't see you have done much wrong. Put it down to experience and move forward. Tell customers how long you have been tiling if they ask. If they don't ask, then they are not really bothered as long as they get a good job. I have never been asked prior to being given work but it has come up in conversation, and as yet has not caused me a problem.

Every job is a learning experience and I KNOW you won't make the same mistakes again. Don't get too down hearted, carry on doing what you are doing and put this behind you.

Keep reading the forums and let us know how you are getting on.

Thanks ALL these chats in here have been invaluble to me - on the whole I'm an optomist but when things go wrong I'm quite the pessamist!!

When i mentioned about 5mm out I placed my Spirit level flat on the ply and there were dips of upto 5mm in the middle of my level (and above in places) where as you rightly pointed out the ply had just followed the lines of the curvature of the wall.

I used BAL flexible rapid set adh and bonded the ply with BAL primer?

Just need the joiner not to Bad mouth my work....I'm considering calling him......anyway I'll let you know how things progress.

Anthony:8:

 

[1111]

Hi anthony,

I personally will not touch nothing that is not pretty much spot on,on the other hand getting over bad thing's is also part of the learning process,if you have a backround in construction i would say that a tiling course maybe a little easier to absorb,like you said you are 33 and have to kid's and need to pay your mortgage ,tiling doesn't sound a great proposition at the moment does it?

While you can earn great money ,the chances of you earning it straight away are slim,not impossible but slim,especially with you saying you live in a small community.

At the end of the day we are quite similar,i am only a year older than you and my second child is on the way,but i have been tiling full time since i was 16yrs old and working part time between 14 and 16.

If you really want to tile my best advice to you would be to start small and gain confidence and experience,check the area you are tiling ,before agreeing a price and until you have more experience do not take on job's with a potential for disaster and my biggest advice do not get involved in anything but tiling as you open yourself up for headache after headache.

If you need any advice at all ,about anything to do with tiling,i will always be glad to give you my opinion.

Good luck for the future
Mike

Thanks Mike,

Your right - I need to ensure I dont get ideas above my station as I'm only lining myself up for a fall.....

Yor offer of advice is really appriciated and will be put into use in the future without question!

Large ones all round:8:

Thanks bud

Anthony

 

[Daz]

Hi Anthony,

This job sounds like a real bummer and that's a shame. I think the advice already offered sums up a steep learning curve and as a fairly new tiler myself I can only add some (I hope) reassurance.

I, too, have had jobs that I felt could be achieved within a "certain" timescale and I have price them accordingly. The one thing that I never do is advise the customer how long the job may take. If asked, I always say that the job will take as long as it takes as I never rush my work to ensure that I deliver the best possible results. And besides, it's not as though the customer is paying me on a day rate so why should they be bothered by my progress (or lack of)??

I try not to get down when a job starts to run into extra days by looking back at my work and taking pride in what I have achieved - just remember that it is all valuable experience. I do make a point of advising clients in a subtle way that a) their choice of cheap s**t tiles does not help matters, b) their uneven walls / floors will affect the final result and c) cheap adhesive is only good for filling cracks no matter what Topps Tiles tell you - aaaargh, crap job and materials today (rant done)!

It is easy to spot a "fussy" customer, so make a point of discussing your professionalism and advise that you only have happy customers because if you or your customers are not happy with the end result YOU rectify the problem, at your cost. Remind Mr & Mrs fussy that you rely on a good reputation. I always drop into the conversation that it takes years to build a good reputation and minutes to ruin it!

Keep your chin up, it appears that you have done nothing wrong. I'm pretty sure that "the other tiler / chippy" is not the only other tiler or chippy in town so do some networking and you will be surprised how quickly things take shape for you.

Be confident and be prepared to take the odd job as a kick in the teeth as you'll be amazed at how quick a £1k profit week comes along - happy days!

Good luck and we're here to offer help and support.
Keep smiling and tiling.

 

[MrSpoon]

if you feel u need more practise to increase your speed why not rip out the tiles in your bathroom and re-tile it with some cheap ones, then re-tile over in different size tiles maybe in brick bond? might not look the best but once you get more experience and more money coming in you can splash out on some really nice ones and knock all them off and re-tile it after you've finished practicing:yes:

 

[faithhealer]

Keep your chin up Anthony, I know the pressure of trying to earn enough to pay the morgage etc, don't we all! You sound conciensious enough to be a good tiler so stick in there son!

 

[LM Ceramics]

im sorry to hear that anthony and with being a new tiler sounds like a nightmare job i ve just finished a bathroom similar to yours plyed walls and most walls you could put your straight edge on it a fit your hand in it to be honest despite tiling since i left school 4 years ago i really struggled with that job and i totatally agree with mz yet again bout some of these course tiling a workshop (4 m2) is completley different to tiling a full bathroom dont feel too bad there was obsticles like rough walls and plyed walls but you need to now how to deal with them thats when experience comes in alot of these courses send lads out like someone said in a previous post conviencing them they could tile some people have got it and some havent

rushing it to self employment after a 4 day course is a bit foolish gain experience and when you think your confiedent to go out and tile properly then go for it make as much money as you can try tiling part time or now and again see if you can pull jobs in or try asking tiling firms for work or ring tilers and ask them for experience/apprentice


end of the day if your customer is happy with your work then you should try rectify it and i hope the so called "tiler/joiner wont bad mouth you"

also to add next time you get a job just be honest and tell the customer how long you have been tiling

 

[1111]

Thanks for all your responses folks - Its good to know I can get some good honest advise.

I think the job faulted due to me being pressured by the customer to finish - Lesson definatley learnt - I have decided to tell any future customers that I am fairly new in tiling and may be a bit slower.

I'd love to get into a tiling firm etcc... as LM pointed out but as far as I can see there is only 1 other tiler within 80miles (maybe Grumpy is the next closest!)

I have just been to estimate a job for a kitchen with black 10 by 20 brick like tiles and a glass mosaic splashback........I'm sure if I get the job I'll be back on about those mosaics!!

I really want to make a go of this and I certainly do have pride in my work - although I am still really dissapointed with my last job - Its made me more determined to spend more time and get it right next time - I'll post some pictures if sucessful!

Thanks again all - and I'll keep you posted.
----

Hi Anthony,

This job sounds like a real bummer and that's a shame. I think the advice already offered sums up a steep learning curve and as a fairly new tiler myself I can only add some (I hope) reassurance.

I, too, have had jobs that I felt could be achieved within a "certain" timescale and I have price them accordingly. The one thing that I never do is advise the customer how long the job may take. If asked, I always say that the job will take as long as it takes as I never rush my work to ensure that I deliver the best possible results. And besides, it's not as though the customer is paying me on a day rate so why should they be bothered by my progress (or lack of)??

I try not to get down when a job starts to run into extra days by looking back at my work and taking pride in what I have achieved - just remember that it is all valuable experience. I do make a point of advising clients in a subtle way that a) their choice of cheap s**t tiles does not help matters, b) their uneven walls / floors will affect the final result and c) cheap adhesive is only good for filling cracks no matter what Topps Tiles tell you - aaaargh, crap job and materials today (rant done)!

It is easy to spot a "fussy" customer, so make a point of discussing your professionalism and advise that you only have happy customers because if you or your customers are not happy with the end result YOU rectify the problem, at your cost. Remind Mr & Mrs fussy that you rely on a good reputation. I always drop into the conversation that it takes years to build a good reputation and minutes to ruin it!

Keep your chin up, it appears that you have done nothing wrong. I'm pretty sure that "the other tiler / chippy" is not the only other tiler or chippy in town so do some networking and you will be surprised how quickly things take shape for you.

Be confident and be prepared to take the odd job as a kick in the teeth as you'll be amazed at how quick a £1k profit week comes along - happy days!

Good luck and we're here to offer help and support.
Keep smiling and tiling.

Cheers buddy - an uplifting response! Although admittedly a £1k week seems a loooooong way off yet!!!

Thanks again mate and I'll keep you all posted on my progress.

AK

 

[LM Ceramics]

£1 k a week for a new tiler is bollucks im afraid when your experience and quick enough then it is achieveable i fairly new to tiling and fairly quick i could only earn that on commercial work but private unless the walls are flat as i doubt it

 

[Daz]

I'm new to tiling and regularly earn £1k per week when doing floors. Walls can be a different matter, but I have had as many good jobs as bad.

The clue is in my nickname; I'm not a fast tiler!

If you don't agree with my opinions, perhaps you are not pricing yourself at what you are worth??

BTW I only do domestic work, never even considered commercial stuff.

 

[White Room]

Got to honest I've never earn't that kind of money in a week on domestic Captain, £150 a day tends to be the tops

 

[Daz]

I hear you Whitebeam, and I would agree that you should be able to easily charge £150 a day. I usually estimate wall tiling with a similar figure in mind but find that a floor in excess of 40 sqm is when you can start to make good money. For example, I'm doing a porcelain floor this week which is 40 sqm in an Opus Romano pattern. I installed 'lectric UFH on Monday and will have it tiled by end of week clearing around £1200 after materials.

The jobs are out there and you just need to be lucky in finding them I guess.

 

[Highlander]

Hi Anthony

I am based in Golspie and have work all over Highlands, if you are wanting to get in contact with me pm me. I have job on at the moment wet room floor, steps and natural stone floor in crazy paving all in one garage conversion. So if you want to come and labour for a couple of days let me know.

Cheers,

Gary

Highlander

 

[Fekin]

Sounds quite a trend for new tilers to get a real stinker of a job very early on :lol: , happens to us all

 

[LM Ceramics]

yes if you do floor captain then i see your point and i do price accordingly most of the last domestic jobs have been trickier than i thought

 

[1111]

Hey guys, just another quick post to say thanks for all those offering advice and support - I even got an offer to go and work for a few days with a Tiler - fairly near me which is great.

I have taken on board all that has been said and decided to wipe my mouth and get on with it - I know I'll never forget that job which will be enough to stop me making the same mistakes again.

I'm currently on a kitchen and will post some pics when done!

Cheers again folks!:yes:

AK

 

[White Room]

It's a live and learn process we've all been there Just read my signature

 

[1111]

It's a live and learn process we've all been there Just read my signature

LOL! Ha now theres a Tag line I'll remember!:lol:

Cheers

 

[GazTech]

Hi Anthony

I am based in Golspie and have work all over Highlands, if you are wanting to get in contact with me pm me. I have job on at the moment wet room floor, steps and natural stone floor in crazy paving all in one garage conversion. So if you want to come and labour for a couple of days let me know.

Cheers,

Gary

Highlander

Top man Lander for the kindness of your offer......Gaz