B
Billski
If it comes to it I think I'll have to take them up a row at a time and re fix them down in the exact position using a mosaic trowel with a decent adhesive. There's about £400 worth of tiles wasted otherwise.
T
Tile Shop
Also seen it before where a primer had been used (BAL APD), and it formed a very easy peelable skin. This ply was virtually impervious and has some kind of material built in, that prevented normal things from sticking to it. But the tiler did a test with the old two part BAL Fast-Flex and that stuck, but we all know that adhesive came from a different universe!
Like everyone says there are many different variations of ply, different variations of porosity, all had different kinds of treatment. No two ply's will act exactly the same, and will require different measures of prep (or none at all). Therefore priming the face may do more harm than good.
For that reason, people should stick to cement backer boards, 1. just to be safe, and 2. because its what they're designed for.
However, doesn't solve the OP's issue. But if one adhesive has worked and the other hasn't the next course of action is to definitely speak to Weber Technical and maybe get them to come and look at it for themselves.
Like everyone says there are many different variations of ply, different variations of porosity, all had different kinds of treatment. No two ply's will act exactly the same, and will require different measures of prep (or none at all). Therefore priming the face may do more harm than good.
For that reason, people should stick to cement backer boards, 1. just to be safe, and 2. because its what they're designed for.
However, doesn't solve the OP's issue. But if one adhesive has worked and the other hasn't the next course of action is to definitely speak to Weber Technical and maybe get them to come and look at it for themselves.
B
Billski
I've contacted them and I'm waiting for them to arrange a visit. I'll keep you all posted.
Third!
D
Dan@Ultra
Afternoon, (Brand Blocked Temporarily until they unblock us on facebook) recommendation on Ply for all the Ultra adhesives.
D
Dumbo
Had this discussion a while . I prime everything . Was told by people on here that I should not prime ply with bal fast flex. I checked their spec sheet and they were right . So I contacted bal and asked them about it and they said it wouldn't be a problem if I primed it . I expect the same answer may be got from weber
D
Dumbo
I am really interested to see how this develops please let us know how it turns out .
I think @paul.c checked its 300mm mate. Plus he's managing to stick to the wood with other adhesives. So begs the question why not the weber set trade.
L
LM
Was the area of the tiled floor that is still stuck down trafficed much before it was tiled?
The reason I ask is that a few years ago I was on an Ardex/BAL course and this topic came up. They said that one of the major issues with certian Plywood boards was that they are coming from really hot climates and at first the plywood was arriving in the UK having spent weeks or so in very hot temperatures while in transit. This caused the glues that bond the plywood togeather to melt out of the ply to the board below while they where in the hot climates and when the bales of plywood were taken of the boats in the cooler UK they ended up as one large block of useless plywood all stuck togeater as one.
To counter this the manufacturers in these countries treated all the boards with a releasing agent that prevented the boeards from sticking togeather during transport. These releasing agents are invisible so they reccommended that before tiling any ply the board must be thourouly sanded to remove the releasing agent which in turn would allow the adhesive to key properly. I'm wondering if the area that the tiles are still down on had enough wear to remove the releasing aget before it was tiled?
The reason I ask is that a few years ago I was on an Ardex/BAL course and this topic came up. They said that one of the major issues with certian Plywood boards was that they are coming from really hot climates and at first the plywood was arriving in the UK having spent weeks or so in very hot temperatures while in transit. This caused the glues that bond the plywood togeather to melt out of the ply to the board below while they where in the hot climates and when the bales of plywood were taken of the boats in the cooler UK they ended up as one large block of useless plywood all stuck togeater as one.
To counter this the manufacturers in these countries treated all the boards with a releasing agent that prevented the boeards from sticking togeather during transport. These releasing agents are invisible so they reccommended that before tiling any ply the board must be thourouly sanded to remove the releasing agent which in turn would allow the adhesive to key properly. I'm wondering if the area that the tiles are still down on had enough wear to remove the releasing aget before it was tiled?
D
Dumbo
Interesting . Also where he has stuck down tiles with different adhesive is this where tiling has already failed therefore removing release agent .
B
Billski
Well that does sound like it could explain things. But the area that the tiles did fix to with the different adhesive weren't really in a high foot traffic area. Best reason so far though.
Still waiting for Weber to get back to me for a site visit.
Still waiting for Weber to get back to me for a site visit.
B
Billski
And no the tiles that stuck went onto untouched ply, so can't of removed the agent beforehand.
D
Dumbo
Like for like
I think this is one of those threads where we work a lot on the reason behind the failure and not so much on the fix.
Unless weber are going to say the ply needs replacing (so at your cost not theirs) the fix is all the same and you've suggested it already.
Just needs tiling with an adhesive that's sticking. Do some test with off cuts and get on with it leaving a small area for weber to check and probably wriggle out of it because of fixer error or whatever.
Unless they confirm that batch of adhesive wasn't right, it's going fall on your head IMO. Sounds a bit harsh wasn't meant to come across like that.
Point I'm making is just retile it quick and move on. Don't use that adhesive again and look in to the ply you buy in future.
Just my 2p after reading it all again.
Unless weber are going to say the ply needs replacing (so at your cost not theirs) the fix is all the same and you've suggested it already.
Just needs tiling with an adhesive that's sticking. Do some test with off cuts and get on with it leaving a small area for weber to check and probably wriggle out of it because of fixer error or whatever.
Unless they confirm that batch of adhesive wasn't right, it's going fall on your head IMO. Sounds a bit harsh wasn't meant to come across like that.
Point I'm making is just retile it quick and move on. Don't use that adhesive again and look in to the ply you buy in future.
Just my 2p after reading it all again.
B
Blunt Tool
Don't know if you guys down south are the same but good few year back up here all the builders merchants started peddling cheap inferior plywood from all over the world wherever it was cheapest. Before that all the plywood came from Scandinavian countries, best there was and never any problems with it. I never go near plywood now and use Wedi or tile backer boards now sounds a bit like the horror stories I heard up here years back!
D
Dumbo
I like using ply for structure but never fix direct to it . I always use ditra or similar but I have to wonder in this situation if it still would of failed
L
LM
Sand and vacuum the floor first 😉
R
Rookery
I'm not a fan of Weber gear and I suspect, like another poster said, that the formulation for Weber Trade S1 has been cut to the bone to make it cheaper. However, they must make tonnes and tonnes of the stuff at a time and they must do QC checks from each batch. If a 'bad batch' had got through, there would be 1000's of metres worth of adhesive all failing and I'm sure we would have heard about it by now.
My money is on dodgy ply. I never use the stuff myself, preferring Hardiebacker board. As far as I know, most adhesive manufacturers say to prime the reverse side of ply to prevent moisture coming through, not the surface to be tiled.
My money is on dodgy ply. I never use the stuff myself, preferring Hardiebacker board. As far as I know, most adhesive manufacturers say to prime the reverse side of ply to prevent moisture coming through, not the surface to be tiled.
dave09
TF
Just a thought, the photo that shows the plywood, as has been said looks quite dark, I don't suppose it could be more of a concrete shuttering ply with releasing agent impregnated in it
And maybe the Weber adhesive just couldn't cope, whereas another manufacture may well just have been a bit better?
As said just a thought
Dave
And maybe the Weber adhesive just couldn't cope, whereas another manufacture may well just have been a bit better?
As said just a thought
Dave
L
LM
Shutterers defenitly don't use hardwood plywood. That darkness indicates 'Redwood'
Whenever I see "trade" I shiver, more like "Tesco value" range. Cut to the absolute bone.
I've not used the Weber version, but Larsen to a trade version too and it is sh1te. I would never dream of using it on a difficult substrate or tile, a ceramic tile onto cement screed maybe, at a push, perhaps, if there was nothing else
I've not used the Weber version, but Larsen to a trade version too and it is sh1te. I would never dream of using it on a difficult substrate or tile, a ceramic tile onto cement screed maybe, at a push, perhaps, if there was nothing else
Not helpful in this instance but a perfect example of why ply should be avoided and a solid floor like that should have hardie glued and screwed
B
Billski
B
Billski
Yes with the same Weber trade stuff.
There are similar tiling threads here
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