Adhesive not sticking

[GemmaWells88]

Good evening everyone I’m wondering if you can offer a little bit of advice if possible.

We have recently completed an extension to our existing house and opted to go for 60x60 polished porcelain tiles in part of the old and all of the new House.

They were installed in October last year and underneath is a piped UFH system. The UFH system was commissioned about 6 weeks after the tiles were laid.

An incident happened where I turned the thermostat off after the floor had cooled about 10 degrees and just turned it back on without thinking yet would affect the flooring.

Slowly the tiles have started to pop/burst/move slightly. Whilst on holiday we asked the tiler to look at what was going on with the flooring, he states that he pulled some of the tiles up and the adhesive wasn’t stuck to them, not only was it not stuck to the tiles it wasn’t stuck to the chipboard either.

Can anyone advise why this is?? The make up of the floor is as follows:
Joists 300mm apart
100mm Kingspan between joists
Plated pipe UFH system
22mm chipboard
Primed with PVA/water mix
Ultra tile fibre fix fx powder mid adhesive
Porcelain tiles

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Gemma

 

[Chris N]

View attachment 99590 View attachment 99591 View attachment 99592 View attachment 99593 View attachment 99594 Good evening everyone I’m wondering if you can offer a little bit of advice if possible.

We have recently completed an extension to our existing house and opted to go for 60x60 polished porcelain tiles in part of the old and all of the new House.

They were installed in October last year and underneath is a piped UFH system. The UFH system was commissioned about 6 weeks after the tiles were laid.

An incident happened where I turned the thermostat off after the floor had cooled about 10 degrees and just turned it back on without thinking yet would affect the flooring.

Slowly the tiles have started to pop/burst/move slightly. Whilst on holiday we asked the tiler to look at what was going on with the flooring, he states that he pulled some of the tiles up and the adhesive wasn’t stuck to them, not only was it not stuck to the tiles it wasn’t stuck to the chipboard either.

Can anyone advise why this is?? The make up of the floor is as follows:
Joists 300mm apart
100mm Kingspan between joists
Plated pipe UFH system
22mm chipboard
Primed with PVA/water mix
Ultra tile fibre fix fx powder mid adhesive
Porcelain tiles

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Gemma

Whoever advised you was not a tiler Gemma! Chipboard, PVA...not good.

 

[WetSaw]

As above, PVA and chipboard are asking for trouble. The tiles don't look like they were back buttered either. Add UFH and the fact that the chipboard doesn't appear to be fixed means it was going to fail.

 

[Andy Allen]

Yep.....PVA, chipboard, ufh, to much movement, no back skimming...... disaster waiting to happen....

 

[GemmaWells88]

Can anyone explains why the adhesive hasn’t stuck though?? Does anyone know the science behind it?? And can anyone explain what has happened to the adhesive with the small cracks in it??

Thanks again

 

[Dumbo]

It didn't stick to the tile because the tile wasn't back buttered ( a skim of adhesive across the back of the tile prior to laying ) . The adhesive has cracked because there was to much movement in the chipboard .

 

[GemmaWells88]

So does it have nothing to do with the heating?? I had been advised it was something called thermal burst?? Could this be a possibility or not??

 

[WetSaw]

The chipboard sucked all of the moisture out of the adhesive. Thermal burst? Did that occur because the adhesive wasn't mixed with the correct hydrothermic lance causing an over fluctuation of the stickleum molecules or is it just BS?

 

[Chris N]

So does it have nothing to do with the heating?? I had been advised it was something called thermal burst?? Could this be a possibility or not??

Ufh or not, it would have still failed, so don't worry about what you mentioned in your first post...it is not your fault.

Who tiled it? Was it a tiler or or or another tiler, who really isn't a tiler, but has done a bit of tiling, in their bathroom back in 1970? Using PVA, tends to make me think it was an older person.

 

[Spare Tool]

The chipboard sucked all of the moisture out of the adhesive. Thermal burst? Did that occur because the adhesive wasn't mixed with the correct hydrothermic lance causing an over fluctuation of the stickleum molecules or is it just BS?

Stickleum molecules could be right...it's not even an S1 adhesive, suitable for nothing except walls imo.

 

[One Day]

I don't have the time to explain it all, but trust me: everything that could be wrong with the job has been done!

Chipboard+UFH+possibly floating = failure
PVA = failure
No back-buttering on large format = failure
Not 100% coverage = failure
Air gaps in the adhesive bed+ufh = failure.

It is 100% not the adhesive's fault.

 

[Spare Tool]

I don't have the time to explain it all, but trust me: everything that could be wrong with the job has been done!

Chipboard+UFH+possibly floating = failure
PVA = failure
No back-buttering on large format = failure
Not 100% coverage = failure
Air gaps in the adhesive bed+ufh = failure.

It is 100% not the adhesive's fault.

Take the other factors out of the equation and tell me you'd have used a C2 adhesive on wood and ufh? ...course its partly down to the adhesive Mark

 

[Flintstone]

It’s nothing to do with the adhesive, it’s all the other things he’s done wrong.

 

[One Day]

Take the other factors out of the equation and tell me you'd have used a C2 adhesive on wood and ufh? ...course its partly down to the adhesive Mark

You're right Andy, I would use S1 minimum on anything heated, but the original claim was that the adhesive wasn't sticking to the tiles.
C2 will definitely stick to porcelain IF the other things had been addressed.

Heck, they could have used BAL fastflex and it would still likely have failed due to the PVA, dusty chipboard and trowel technique!

 

[GemmaWells88]

He is a tiler by trade, but he is older. Would it have made a difference if the floor was ply or not??

 

[One Day]

Your floor tile failure was caused by the following factors.
Individually they could have caused failure, but combined it was a certainty.

Chipboard floor - can be tiled onto but only with very special adhesives and with 100% coverage to tile and floor.

Heated floor - can be tiled easily enough but must have an uncoupling membrane such as Schluter Ditra, to separate the adhesive bed and tiles from the expansion/contraction stresses caused by the heating - as seen readily in the adhesive cracks in your photos.

PVA - simply put, this forms a skin and prevents (not aids) adhesion.
Acrylic primers, or SBR only should be used.

C2 adhesive has polymer added to bond to porcelain (standard sand and cement won't bond) but does not have anywhere near enough polymer to increase the flexibility required for a heated, timber floor.

Timber Floor - if your floor is "floating" as I suspect it is, then 90% of professional tilers will just walk away from them. There is just too much risk of movement, both deflection (bounce) and lateral (sideways) movement. They can be tiled. but not without a lot of prep, careful checking and special materials.

Tiles aren't back-buttered. - It is recommended that large format tiles, particularly with waffle backs, are back-buttered with a thin layer of adhesive to aid "bedding in" and ensuring a solid, even bond. It also removes any risk from tiles with dusty backs.

Hope that helps explain what has gone wrong!

 

[Flintstone]

Don’t let him get away with no.1 in the excuse book, ‘I’ve been doing this 30 years and never had a problem’

 

[GemmaWells88]

Thank you so much for your advice, it’s much appreciated!! I’ll go back to the tiler although I’m pretty sure he is going to deny any wrong doing so it’s probs going to cost me an absolute fortune to either fix or replace

 

[GemmaWells88]

The chipboard sucked all of the moisture out of the adhesive. Thermal burst? Did that occur because the adhesive wasn't mixed with the correct hydrothermic lance causing an over fluctuation of the stickleum molecules or is it just BS?

Sorry I have no idea what this means lol

 

[One Day]

Thank you so much for your advice, it’s much appreciated!! I’ll go back to the tiler although I’m pretty sure he is going to deny any wrong doing so it’s probs going to cost me an absolute fortune to either fix or replace

https://www.TilersForums.co.uk/services/technical-inspections/

 

[Andy Allen]

Show him this thread.....
If he doesn't agree ask him to comment on here.
He might learn something....🙂

 

[Chris N]

Sorry I have no idea what this means lol

It was a joke 😀

 

[Perry]

Gemma sorry you have been duped by a so called tiler. There are lots about I am afraid. But It's nothing to do with being old. Most of the older guys on here have a lot more idea than most of the younger ones. Lots of experience with a little age. Pete.

 

[One Day]

Gemma sorry you have been duped by a so called tiler. There are lots about I am afraid. But It's nothing to do with being old. Most of the older guys on here have a lot more idea than most of the younger ones. Lots of experience with with a little age. Pete.

I'm 42. Which category do I fall into?! 🙄

 

[Andy Allen]

I'm 42. Which category do I fall into?! 🙄

Still a wet behind ears youngster....🙂

 

[Perry]

66 years young.

 

[One Day]

Still a wet behind ears youngster....🙂

 

[Perry]

That looks like a few of the guys I have employed over the years.

 

[Just Rizzle]

the only adhesive that use to stick to chip board was the good old bal flex the black rubber based adhesive would stick like s,hit to ablanket.