Adhesive not sticking

[GemmaWells88]

Good evening everyone I’m wondering if you can offer a little bit of advice if possible.

We have recently completed an extension to our existing house and opted to go for 60x60 polished porcelain tiles in part of the old and all of the new House.

They were installed in October last year and underneath is a piped UFH system. The UFH system was commissioned about 6 weeks after the tiles were laid.

An incident happened where I turned the thermostat off after the floor had cooled about 10 degrees and just turned it back on without thinking yet would affect the flooring.

Slowly the tiles have started to pop/burst/move slightly. Whilst on holiday we asked the tiler to look at what was going on with the flooring, he states that he pulled some of the tiles up and the adhesive wasn’t stuck to them, not only was it not stuck to the tiles it wasn’t stuck to the chipboard either.

Can anyone advise why this is?? The make up of the floor is as follows:
Joists 300mm apart
100mm Kingspan between joists
Plated pipe UFH system
22mm chipboard
Primed with PVA/water mix
Ultra tile fibre fix fx powder mid adhesive
Porcelain tiles

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Gemma

 

[Chris N]

View attachment 99590 View attachment 99591 View attachment 99592 View attachment 99593 View attachment 99594 Good evening everyone I’m wondering if you can offer a little bit of advice if possible.

We have recently completed an extension to our existing house and opted to go for 60x60 polished porcelain tiles in part of the old and all of the new House.

They were installed in October last year and underneath is a piped UFH system. The UFH system was commissioned about 6 weeks after the tiles were laid.

An incident happened where I turned the thermostat off after the floor had cooled about 10 degrees and just turned it back on without thinking yet would affect the flooring.

Slowly the tiles have started to pop/burst/move slightly. Whilst on holiday we asked the tiler to look at what was going on with the flooring, he states that he pulled some of the tiles up and the adhesive wasn’t stuck to them, not only was it not stuck to the tiles it wasn’t stuck to the chipboard either.

Can anyone advise why this is?? The make up of the floor is as follows:
Joists 300mm apart
100mm Kingspan between joists
Plated pipe UFH system
22mm chipboard
Primed with PVA/water mix
Ultra tile fibre fix fx powder mid adhesive
Porcelain tiles

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Gemma

Whoever advised you was not a tiler Gemma! Chipboard, PVA...not good.

 

[WetSaw]

As above, PVA and chipboard are asking for trouble. The tiles don't look like they were back buttered either. Add UFH and the fact that the chipboard doesn't appear to be fixed means it was going to fail.

 

[Andy Allen]

Yep.....PVA, chipboard, ufh, to much movement, no back skimming...... disaster waiting to happen....

 

[GemmaWells88]

Can anyone explains why the adhesive hasn’t stuck though?? Does anyone know the science behind it?? And can anyone explain what has happened to the adhesive with the small cracks in it??

Thanks again

 

[Dumbo]

It didn't stick to the tile because the tile wasn't back buttered ( a skim of adhesive across the back of the tile prior to laying ) . The adhesive has cracked because there was to much movement in the chipboard .

 

[GemmaWells88]

So does it have nothing to do with the heating?? I had been advised it was something called thermal burst?? Could this be a possibility or not??

 

[WetSaw]

The chipboard sucked all of the moisture out of the adhesive. Thermal burst? Did that occur because the adhesive wasn't mixed with the correct hydrothermic lance causing an over fluctuation of the stickleum molecules or is it just BS?

 

[Chris N]

So does it have nothing to do with the heating?? I had been advised it was something called thermal burst?? Could this be a possibility or not??

Ufh or not, it would have still failed, so don't worry about what you mentioned in your first post...it is not your fault.

Who tiled it? Was it a tiler or or or another tiler, who really isn't a tiler, but has done a bit of tiling, in their bathroom back in 1970? Using PVA, tends to make me think it was an older person.

 

[Spare Tool]

The chipboard sucked all of the moisture out of the adhesive. Thermal burst? Did that occur because the adhesive wasn't mixed with the correct hydrothermic lance causing an over fluctuation of the stickleum molecules or is it just BS?

Stickleum molecules could be right...it's not even an S1 adhesive, suitable for nothing except walls imo.

 

[One Day]

I don't have the time to explain it all, but trust me: everything that could be wrong with the job has been done!

Chipboard+UFH+possibly floating = failure
PVA = failure
No back-buttering on large format = failure
Not 100% coverage = failure
Air gaps in the adhesive bed+ufh = failure.

It is 100% not the adhesive's fault.

 

[Spare Tool]

I don't have the time to explain it all, but trust me: everything that could be wrong with the job has been done!

Chipboard+UFH+possibly floating = failure
PVA = failure
No back-buttering on large format = failure
Not 100% coverage = failure
Air gaps in the adhesive bed+ufh = failure.

It is 100% not the adhesive's fault.

Take the other factors out of the equation and tell me you'd have used a C2 adhesive on wood and ufh? ...course its partly down to the adhesive Mark

 

[Flintstone]

It’s nothing to do with the adhesive, it’s all the other things he’s done wrong.

 

[One Day]

Take the other factors out of the equation and tell me you'd have used a C2 adhesive on wood and ufh? ...course its partly down to the adhesive Mark

You're right Andy, I would use S1 minimum on anything heated, but the original claim was that the adhesive wasn't sticking to the tiles.
C2 will definitely stick to porcelain IF the other things had been addressed.

Heck, they could have used BAL fastflex and it would still likely have failed due to the PVA, dusty chipboard and trowel technique!

 

[GemmaWells88]

He is a tiler by trade, but he is older. Would it have made a difference if the floor was ply or not??