Mortar beds on walls and floors? - Tile Advice

[Rob Z]

How many of you are called on to do mortar work? It's few and far between here in most markets in the US. There are selected markets where mud is still king, however. I learned from a guy who had been floating mud since the 60's, and I think he learned it from a guy who had started back in the 1930's.

A lot of old houses have mortar over wooden lath, but after about the late 30's metal lath was used.

Here is a picture that shows both a finished float (on the left) and a wall with the scratch coat (rear wall) and the wall that is prepped for mud with paper and galvanized metal lath (on the right).

Here, floor mud is usually 4 or 5 to 1 (coarse sand and cement). Wall mud is usually 4 or 5 to 1 to 1 (sand/cement/masonry lime). Some areas of the country use something called "fireclay" instead of the lime, which I have never seen.

We really love to do this work because it is old-fashioned and is done the same way it as been done for centuries, all by hand.

 

[Gracer]

Hi Rob,

Still do the occasional bathroom floor wet bedded here in Oz. Nearly all bathrooms are screeded out before sticking the tiles down though these days, still, a tough skill to learn. A mix of 4:1 river sand & portland cement, with an additive like bondcrete in the mixing water.

Don't reckon there would be to many guys doing walls the way you described anymore, I learnt off guys who did, but adhesive is king now...faster & more cost effective. I have tried removing tiles that have been fixed in that manner....man they are like flint.
I will sometimes use the handfixing method on stairs if the concrete is so bad all the stairs are uneven. If they are not too bad I will just pack them out with adhesive, usually cement based.

 

[lucius]

Learnt how to sand and cement wall tiles at college in Australia many years ago never had the cause to do so since. We have a lot hand made Terracota over here and i always lay them in sand and cement untill few weeks ago i watched Spaniard doing them with Addy and thought why arent i doing it like this, funny how you get set in your ways.
Lucius.

 

[cornish_crofter]

Rob

What you described there is very similar to lathe and plaster that was common practice in the UK, until they invented plasterboard, or dry wall as you like to call it over there.

We have 4 period houses (Victorian houses) in Cornwall. Unfortunately there is very little lathe and plaster left in any of them. Two of them had the lathe and plaster ripped out before we even bought them, the third had one lathe and plaster ceiling, which was about to come down, so we removed and replaced it before the tenant's son had about 1 tonne of ceiling fall on him:yikes:.

The house we live in still has a couple of lathe and plaster ceilings and a lathe and plaster wall. Unfortunately eceonomics dictate that these will have to be replaced by plasterboard, they need replacing, and one will need to come out as it's in the wrong place for us.

 

[doug boardley]

done acres and acres of it over the years Rob! not bother so muh now tho'!unk:

 

[LM Ceramics]

sand and cement fixing is very old know and not really used anymore i was taught at college on sand and cement fixing never done it though

 

[Rob Z]

So much of the old framing in these old houses where we work is so twisted, rough, out of plumb, etc, that it seems to take forever to try and scab on studs and blocking to make the walls and floor flat.

Sometimes it does seem to be a bit of relief :yes: when we get to a job and the walls are flat enough for backer board and the floors flat enough for Ditra or Noble CIS (another sheet membrane sold here in the US)....all that mudding is a lot of work!


And my own house has tile stuck with mastic over drywall, because that is all the builder offered. :incazzato:

My in-laws live with us, so the shower I built for them to use is all mud, with fancy Italian Casa Dolce porcelain and a bench. Maybe someday I will get to redo the stuff upstairs that we use.

Thanks for the perspective from the UK and Australia...it seems that things are the same here as there.

 

[oogabooga]

Don't worry Rob, crappy framing is a worldwide phenomenon. Some tilers make the effort to plumb/flatten walls, but the majority don't. Glad I'm not the only one who finds it takes ages to shim/strap framing to get it flat:dizzy2:

I like mud walls because they're soooo perfect, but it's rarely practical because of the build out around windows and doors. Another thing I like about the mud is the sound deadening qualities - if you have a room that backs onto the shower it's much quieter than tile over cementboard or plasterboard.

 

[White Room]

Another material which I used a long time ago but well underated in my mind, rib-lath http://www.catnic.com/libraries/document/385.pdf

 

[Rob Z]

Whitebeam, I never knew what that stuff was called...we see it in old houses. I've never seen it at the supply house where I buy my expanded metal lath.

 

[White Room]

It's a lot stronger than eml but to buy would have order off a specialized house/outlet

 

[2Balls]

Sand and Cement is still part of the Apprentiship here in Germany:8:2Balls

 

[Spud]

I am starting a 40 sqm bin store area tomorrow and will be doing the walls in sand and cement fixing i will post photos on this thread for every one to have a look

 

[lucius]

Cant wait to see it but why sand & cement ?
Lucius

 

[oogabooga]

Gary, had a look at your website :yikes: - that's some seriously impressive work there mate. Look forward to your render/screed pics.