Advice on adhesive fault/failure please

[zoeoutside]

Dear all

I would very much appreciate your input into the following situation:

Thurs/Fri morning - tiles put on wall using 3 bags of a store's own brand powder adhesive which is supposed to set in 2 hours

Fri - late afternoon, grouting

Monday morning - polish grout off, see that tiles have slipped - wonky uneven grout lines (as opposed to Friday) plus significant lippage. Excess adhesive put to one side to harden before disposal is like silly putty - nowhere near going off. (The excess eventually hardened after 10 days.)

Various tiles taken off wall - it appears that 1/3 of tiles stuck no problem, on the other 2/3s, the adhesive was as unset as that left out.

Two of the adhesive bags had the same batch/manufacturer code, one was different.

Tiles put on by professional tiler.

Do you think that a reasonable conclusion might be that the two matching code bags were faulty? Store is adamant that their adhesive is not at fault.

Many thanks

 

[peteablard]

Was there a date of manufacture on the bags?

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Dear all

I would very much appreciate your input into the following situation:

Thurs/Fri morning - tiles put on wall using 3 bags of a store's own brand powder adhesive which is supposed to set in 2 hours

Fri - late afternoon, grouting

Monday morning - polish grout off, see that tiles have slipped - wonky uneven grout lines (as opposed to Friday) plus significant lippage. Excess adhesive put to one side to harden before disposal is like silly putty - nowhere near going off. (The excess eventually hardened after 10 days.)

Various tiles taken off wall - it appears that 1/3 of tiles stuck no problem, on the other 2/3s, the adhesive was as unset as that left out.

Two of the adhesive bags had the same batch/manufacturer code, one was different.

Tiles put on by professional tiler.

Do you think that a reasonable conclusion might be that the two matching code bags were faulty? Store is adamant that their adhesive is not at fault.

Many thanks

ask store to send a samplele to ceram and you will do the same give them a sample and ask them to sign your sample tell them you want all cost to be rebursed if falt is found and to compasate you for all the trouble on top should do the trick

 

[zoeoutside]

Hi Pete, I think it was a date of manufacture on the bags - unfortunately in an act of incredible naivety, all 3 bags were returned to store without making a note of the different codes/dates. I am 100% sure that two were the same and one was different though.

 

[zoeoutside]

Ray, supposedly store has had sample tested by their supplier (I think - will check tomorrow). Depending on the time of day (literally!) their story changes from "we tested it, no problem" to "we couldn't test it because it had set" to (another day, another sample) "we tested it, no problem". Thanks for the headsup on CERAM.

 

[john anderson]

Had bad batch issues with Topps recently. They admitted a problem with it.

 

[Sean Kelly]

Zoeoutside, your location is England. North or South? Is your tiled wall inside or outside? Is it very cold where this tiling took place?
Maybe the adhesive is faulty.
Maybe the adhesive was not mixed correctly.
Maybe it was too cold to tile........if it was below 5 degrees C then it is too cold.

Hope the above helps.

Cheers
Sean

 

[zoeoutside]

Hi Sean, down in south, definitely nowhere near as low as 5 degrees, inside walls both, one guy did all the work, mixing and tiling. I just find it somewhat suspicious that with 3 bags, 2 with matching codes/date, 2/3s of the tiles did not stick properly and the leftover adhesive had not gone off - not so much as a crust on it 3 days later. The tiles that DID stick were the first to go on.

My suspicion is 2 bags of faulty adhesive, but store is not having it.

During the day window was open, evening/night heating on. Leftover adhesive STILL unset after over a week, again evening/night heating on.

 

[kilty55]

sounds like somethign wrong with addy.....was all adhesive same brand/type and no different brands were mixed?

 

[zoeoutside]

Kilty, all 3 bags were same store brand, only difference was 2 bags had same date/code number while the third was different.

 

[zoeoutside]

John, that's very useful to know. Do you have any more details, please? Did they just take your word for it, send it for testing, something else?
Thanks

 

[Dougs Third Go]

is it possible that your tiler "knocked up" the adhesive? ie added more water after the initial mixing?

 

[philipb]

Hi Zoe,
I have had a similar problem to your's,tile shop was unhelpfull,best to contact the
adhesive manufacturer direct,talk to there tech department,try to get them to help,
Good luck.

 

[DHTiling]

If you let us know the shop brand name, then we can tell you the manufacturer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zoeoutside]

Philip and David, sorry for being a bit cagey, but don't want to prejudice anything if we end up going down the legal route to claim costs. Store already sent for testing to their supplier and we were told first that they had tested it and there was no problem, second that they couldn't test it because it had set and third, back to tested and no problem. This was straight from the manufacturer.

Ray suggested sending to CERAM for testing which I will look into, but see that on their website they say they don't deal with the public, so will have to ask builder (who employed tiler) to do that. Does anyone have an idea of how much they charge?



Thanks

 

[zoeoutside]

Doug, I didn't stand over him the whole time, but will ask. Why might he do that? To make it go further?
Ta

 

[AliGage]

Were the bags brought straight to the property and used or were they stored at all? Could they of got damp? What brand did you use?

 

[zoeoutside]

Ali, bought from store on either Tuesday or Wednesday evening, used Thursday and Friday. All travelled together and were put in the same place.

Not naming store at moment just in case that prejudices future actions.

Ta

 

[Gazzer]

I am afraid that if we can not know all the details then we cant really advise any further. Anything said will just be assumptions made on products not known to us.

 

[zoeoutside]

Sir Ramic, I really don't mean to try and make it difficult for people. I just am wary of naming the brand at the moment as we are still going back and forth with the store trying to sort this out and I don't want to prejudice any chance of that happening.

Basically I'm trying to find out if there is any other reasonable explanation other than the adhesive being faulty. Members have been very helpful, pointing out areas to question - temperature (ruled out), damp (ruled out).

Other than the actual brand name, is there any more information I can provide?

Thank you

 

[AliGage]

Grey or green bag? Well known retailler of tiles?

 

[zoeoutside]

Ali, white bag with blue label, not a tile retail specialist.

 

[DHTiling]

Stab in the dark... just "like" my post if agree 🙂 was It TOPPS. 🙂

we know that there are very few stores that have their own brand name on the bags.

 

[AliGage]

That was my guessas well Dave.

 

[zoeoutside]

Guys, there are/were replies in the pipeline, but being a new member, I'm still on moderation (hasten to add, I'm NOT complaining - I've seen the havoc trolls have wreaked on other forums) - just didn't want you to think that I'm ignoring answers because I don't like them. I am very grateful for everyone's time and contributions.

 

[AliGage]

Ali, white bag with blue label, not a tile retail specialist.

Ahh that be a wickes product then?

The fact that it's not setting in-time or at all suggests to me that the bag has got a little damp, not surprising if it has come from wickes. But also thinking about it, as it's come from a high street DIY store, i can't see them paying particular attention to the dates etc on the bag. You could of had some old or out of date stock that's been slung on top of the new pallet.

If the bag has been stored incorrectly though and has become slightly damp this could activate the chemical reaction in the adhesive but be too dry to bond, if that makes sense? The bags weren't torn or split/damaged were they? From the reduced trolly?
I can't see the stock being that old that they're out of date. It sounds very suspect that the bag has become damp to me through incorrect storage and/or maybe tearing or damage to the bags.

 

[AliGage]

Any idea how the powder looked and felt when the bag was opened?

 

[zoeoutside]

Ali, not from reduced trolly. No bag damage that I am aware of, but will check further with tiler and also about what it looked/felt like on opening.

Trying to do a Mr Spock logic here - the tiler is employed by the builder and it was the builder who bought the adhesive. So, if tiler suspected something wrong with adhesive supplied, it would be logical to call it to his/my attention so that if there was a problem down the line, he has covered his back by pointing out that he was not happy with the product he was being asked to work with? Tiler has worked for builder for years and there have not been any problems with his work.

If it had got damp in storage would that also explain the leftover stuff still being like silly putty several days later?

Thanks again

 

[Andy Allen]

why would naming the store prejudices any future action?

all your doing is asking on a tile forum if anyone knows why adhesive purchased from (maybe wickes) has not set...

not sure, but i dont think your braking any laws...

 

[zoeoutside]

Andy (and all) I may well be being over-cautious - but I don't want to be accused of libel (there I go again!).

btw, builder has just confirmed that when he took the bags/sample back to the store, he DID ask if it was possible that it had got damp in storage (apparently he's had this problem with plaster before) but was told that if it had got damp at all it would have lumps in it.....

I'm away from computer rest of the day, but will try to answer any questions tonight/tomorrow.

Again, my thanks

 

[AliGage]

but was told that if it had got damp at all it would have lumps in it.....

Not necessarily. Not hard, set lumps. The powder may have sections of "lumps" but these will simple break up by just pouring it into your bucket. If you get your hand in there first you can usually tell.
When i say damp as well, i don't necessarily mean wet. Everything your saying almost convinces me that this is the case. Regardless, if it was purchased and used pretty much straight away then your first point of call is the store you got it from.

The tiles that have been removed, are they still fixable, or have you had to skip them?