Natural Stone Flooring Advice - kitchen problem

[RRout]

Hi, I'm a new user so I hope I'm using the correct forum for this post.

In October I ordered a new kitchen from a firm that does everything: install, electrics, plumbing, units, appliances, granite and tiling. I knew that this would be more expensive than project managing it myself but I've been very unwell and wanted to avoid the associated hassle of arranging everything myself. As part of this package I arranged for a pompadour marble opus flooring to be put down. This portion of the bill alone exceeds £4,000. The firm stated that the natural stone tiles would be put down on something called "no more ply" (forgive me if I've got the exact name wrong). Their in-house tiler visited me today to measure up a further 16 square metre area of my ground floor where I also want the marble put down. Suddenly at after 5pm this evening (3rd December) I had a call from the kitchen firm saying their tiler doesn't want to put down natural stone on my floor as it may not take the weight. Work is due to start on the kitchen on 6th December and the firm is now requesting that I choose an alternative ceramic or porcelain tile. While this is likely to be cheaper, I've already disposed of all the shares required to cover the cost of the kitchen and it may sound odd but I'll now be rather irritated if I have to spend less as I had to suffer some interest penalties to get at the total amount required!

Now that the background is over my query is this: my house was built in 2002 by Hopkins Homes, the kitchen is on the ground floor, I have a "caberboard" (again forgive me if this is the wrong name) suspended floor which is level and has been previously tiled (albeit with ceramics), several of my neighbours with exactly the same specification house and flooring have natural stone floors and, furthermore, two independent tilers quoted for putting down natural stone (having had sight of the caberboard flooring as the previous tiles have been taken up) in my kitchen and were happy to do so before I decided it would be simpler to have it all managed by one firm. Am I just being confronted by an awkward tiler? Is laying marble on caberboard suspended floors really an issue? My neighbours say their tiler put ply over the top of the caberboard so could marble go down if the kitchen firm didn't insist on using "no more ply"?

I'm due to give the kitchen firm a cheque for the total amount (minus a tiny completion amount) for the kitchen install which includes the marble tiles on Monday before they start work and I'm now somewhat reluctant to do so when I don't know where I stand regarding the tiles. Unfortunately they have me against the wall rather as I'm very unlikely to find another tiler who is available the week before Christmas.

Sorry for the lengthy post but any advice would be much appreciated!

 

[doug boardley]

your tiler is right to question the floor integrity (imo), are the joists dimensionally strong enough? are there sufficient "noggins" to combat deflection issues?, did he want to use a de-coupling membrane?

 

[RRout]

The joists seem to be strong enough but I confess I'm no expert - the previously tiled floor has taken a considerable amount of weight in the past including incredibly heavy gym equipment with absolutely no problem (it's an open planned kitchen/dining room). I'm sorry - I've no idea what noggins are let alone deflection issues! In terms of a de-coupling membrane he didn't even offer up any solutions - he simply seems to be refusing to consider laying natural stone. However, one of the previous independent tilers did state he would use some sort of flexible looking rubbery underlay before putting natural stone tiles down. Sorry for the lack of specific technical terms but I'm in no way an expert. To be honest, I don't mind what needs to be done to make the floor ready for natural stone, I'm happy to pay, I'm just wondering if it really is "impossible" and whether they really should have considered this in October when quoting for the work rather than 3 days before the install begins? Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[Dan]

It's nice to hear of a cautious tiler every now and again to be fair. We hear of so many 'tilers' just sticking them to anything it's refreshing to see the opposite.

There should be ways of strengthening the floor and the kitchen firm should know this. As Doug says, a de-coupling membrane such as Dural CI and extra noggins in the joists will usually do the job shouldn't it?

 

[doug boardley]

noggins are floor bracers that span between the joists, they help to tie the whole floor together and reduce deflection ("bounce") in your timber floor. The rubbery underlay that a previous tiler hinted at, was in all likliehood, a de-coupling membrane.

 

[RRout]

As the caberboard is already down, I'm guessing it will mean taking up the floor in order to size up the quality of the joists / noggins and strengthen them if necessary? I'd have been happy to do this given I've had two months to get the floor ready but I may struggle in three days! If it helps you to size up the task, I know that there is some sort of polystyrene insulation (behind black plastic?) beneath the caberboard - I can see it where the plumbing comes in.

 

[Ajax123]

Can you speak to Hopkins Homes to get the engineering calcs for the joists. They should have that info available fairly easily. A call to their technical manager or director ought to get you that info. That would save taking the floor up un-necessarily.

 

[RRout]

I wish I could. Apparently Hopkins Homes destroyed the technical plans and engineering calculations for my home and they're no longer available. I asked them for them earlier in the year when trying to establish if an interior wall was load bearing. It was built in 2001/02 so I guess I've just missed out on them - very frustrating.

 

[Ajax123]

Nightmare!

With it being new build it is likely that the joists are engineered rather than solid. It would be unusual for a builder like Hopkins to use solid joists certainly. You need to establish the loading capacity of the floor so you need the size of the joists and the unsupported spans. You can calculate the weight of the existing load i.e. the caberboard and presumably plasterboard underneath. You could establish the size and span by cutting a small hole in the caberboard floor big enough to get a tape measure to measure the depth and a torch and a mirror to look at the unsupported span. If the joists have a manufacturers mark on them e.g. finforrest, boise, eco joist etc then the joist manufacturer would be able to give you advice about the loading capacity.

I assume also that it is a masonry build and not timber frame. If it is timber frame the frame supplier would almost certainly have the frame calcs as I beleive they generally keep them for several years.

 

[RRout]

I've just taken a look at the caberboard, where it meets the plumbing, and it doesn't seem to have any kind of void beneath it - it seems to sit directly on black polythene which covers the insulation. From drilling a couple of little holes just now this seems to be the case across the whole floor. Any idea what I'm dealing with and what can be done to strengthen it? I'd be happy to put a whole new floor in on the ground floor capable of supporting natural stone but I don't fancy my chances of getting it done before Monday!

 

[doug boardley]

it sounds like a dreaded floating floor.....if this is the case, not a good idea at all to tile onto

 

[Ajax123]

Sounds like a floating floor to me. Not generally considered good for tiling to. Certainly not a good idea with natural stone. The pro tilers might be able to give better advice here. Do you have any flexibility in terms of floor height. if so you could take out the caberboard and put a screed in its place.

 

[Ajax123]

Doug clearly types faster than me......

 

[RRout]

If that's the case I guess the only solution would be to replace the floating floor with a decent floor capable of taking tiles? Any idea how big a job this is? It's odd that Hopkins Homes put in floating floors and then allowed us all to spec tiled floors when we purchased them (nearly all of us in the development have them and I haven't heard about any problems). Sounds like they cut a few corners? Wouldn't surprise me judging by some of the other (non floor related) problems I've had.

I'm completely flexible on floor height - especially as I'm doing the whole of the ground floor. Would putting a screed in be a huge task? I'm afraid I've no idea what one is!

 

[doug boardley]

it doesn't surprise me at all, builders are always saying floating floors are okay to tile onto (that's because they know no different), very few tilers with a decent knowledge of the trade would tile a floater.

 

[White Room]

it doesn't surprise me at all, builders are always saying floating floors are okay to tile onto (that's because they know no different), very few tilers with a decent knowledge of the trade would tile a floater.

:yikes::yikes::yikes:

 

[Ajax123]

putting in a screed would be a fairly straight forward job but it would put your program back a bit. The thinnest screed available to you at a reasonable cost would be a flowing calcium sulphate screed which you could put in at 35mm depth in that scenario. Alternatively you could go for a cement based screed (traditional type) which would need to be 65mm. You could look at things like underfloor heating as well if you wanted. There is a system called the Max4 Therm system which allows a 25mm screed but I am not sure if this is suitable to go on insulation. I can look into it for you if you wanted.

I can give you contacts for either option if you want them.

 

[doug boardley]

:yikes::yikes::yikes:

exactly Mark:lol::lol:

 

[DHTiling]

Hi and welcome..

To determine if you deffo have a floating floor, is there any fixings in the boards at the joints aprrox 400mm apart.?..i,e nails or screws.

 

[RRout]

The caberboard is 22mm thick so a 35mm screed wouldn't make a huge difference the floor height. I'm not sure about the underfloor heating - I'd love it but it all depends on whether it can sit directly on the insulation (which I presume a screed can?). How much total depth would the screed and underfloor heating add? I just wish (a) the kitchen firm had spotted this earlier (the old tiles were up when they measured up in late August) rather than three days before they're due to start and (b) I'd discovered this forum earlier. I'm tempted to tell the kitchen firm to sort the whole thing out or I'll pull the order (I've paid a large deposit though) - it was avoiding things like this that made me go to them in the first place.

Worst case scenario any suggestions on a ceramic or porcelain opus that would look similar to marble (although sadly it was the texture that drew me to it)? Although I'm guessing you'll say don't tile on the floating floor at all!

 

[RRout]

Thanks Dave - no screws or nails at all. Guess this is the nail in the coffin for my marble floor without starting from scratch with a screed?

 

[Ajax123]

to add underfloor heating to the 35mm screed option would involve increasing the screed depth to 45mm minimum 50mm noiminal assuming a 15mm pipe is used. You can plum this directly into the central heating using a return temperature limiting valve or you can put a single port manifold in with a thermostat. You can put the UFH pipes directly to the insulation (allbeit through a polythene membrane)

 

[DHTiling]

You could remove the boards and insulation.. then install a frame work and screw down to the floor at 300mm centres in both directions.. making sure you seal screw holes through the DPM if it is under the insulation but if it is in the base then it will be fine..

This frame will then make a secure base to fix the boards back down to ready for over boarding or you can replace the boards with 22mm ply and then un-couple with Dural Ci to take out the stress and then you have a perfect base to put those much wanted Marble tiles down..


Yes this will delay the job by a couple days but this will be your quickest method and still get it installed for xmas..

 

[chrisroe]

Floating Floor Karndean or Amtico

 

[RRout]

Thanks Ajax, so effectively I'd have a floor 28mm higher than it is now if I went with underfloor heating. Seems a loss worth making to me although ive never had a problem with heat in the room. Or 13mm higher without. I'd propose losing this height out of the gap between the worksurfaces and the wall units? I don't imagine it would really notice. This might be a silly question but: underfloor heating would mean I could have all the radiators taken out, right?

The next question is the big one - it's approximately a 46 square metre area, what are my chances of finding someone that could do it in the next week? Slim, I imagine. I'm keen to have a kitchen in place at Christmas - microwave meals get old very quickly! Oh and any idea of ball park cost, to the nearest £1,000 or so?

 

[RRout]

Thanks Dave, that may be the simplest solution. I'll talk to the kitchen firm first thing tomorrow - they should have a joiner or carpenter of some description who is capable of doing the work, I'd have hoped?

 

[DHTiling]

No probs, the thing is with floating floors is that they can compress especially at the edges etc and i n door ways, so you must get it solid and the quickest way is to frame it.. but if you do require a heated floor then the screed is an option but not a cheap one..

But if it is one that is wanted then it needs doing before the kitchen goes in but IMO i think it will cause major headache with your kitchen comp who are contracted to now..

 

[RRout]

I think you're right Dave - I've signed a contract with the kitchen firm (albeit a contract that specified a marble floor) and I'd probably lose the high ground if I start talking about adding things like underfloor heating which I'd never mentioned before and that would add to the delay. I'm going to try insisting they install a frame as per your instructions and threaten to walk away unless they find a way forward.

 

[DHTiling]

Just offer to pay for the extra work and then i think it will go smoothly.. after all you want a good job and hassle free..

most of all good luck.. and please do let us know what happens..

 

[Ajax123]

Thanks Ajax, so effectively I'd have a floor 28mm higher than it is now if I went with underfloor heating. Seems a loss worth making to me although ive never had a problem with heat in the room. Or 13mm higher without. I'd propose losing this height out of the gap between the worksurfaces and the wall units? I don't imagine it would really notice. This might be a silly question but: underfloor heating would mean I could have all the radiators taken out, right?

The next question is the big one - it's approximately a 46 square metre area, what are my chances of finding someone that could do it in the next week? Slim, I imagine. I'm keen to have a kitchen in place at Christmas - microwave meals get old very quickly! Oh and any idea of ball park cost, to the nearest £1,000 or so?

You would not have the kitchen back and tiled before Xmas with the screed route IMO. Cost would not be particularly high for a small job like this - maybe couple of grand for the screed and pipework assuming you went for the RTL valve option. A manifold system would add more to the cost as you would need a pump and thermostat etc. I did mine myself with a RTL valve and it works a treat and I did it for significantly less. Taking up the existing and replacing with a screed is quite a big job in terms of disruption. Yes UFH would get rid of rads on the walls. If your kitchen has adjustable feet then you might be able to lose some height there as well. Finding someone to do it quickly would not be difficult.

If you want it back and finished by Christmas then Daves Suggestion is probably the quickest and cheapest and it would still give you a very good floor. If you want UFH you could also go for an under tile heat mat system as well. This would probably not get rid of rads altogether but would certainly supplement them to give a cosy floor.

 

[RRout]

Thanks for all the advice - I really appreciate it.

Dave, I'm more than happy to pay for the additional work and will say so but if they get difficult, and try to insist on me having a cheap ceramic tile, do you think it's worth me pointing out this is something they should have noticed months ago rather than three days before starting work? I'll let you know what they say tomorrow.