Customer Vs Trade Dispute - Natural Stone Tiles

[templar018080]

Hi all,

I understand that BS5385 suggests:

Variation across Joints:
±1mm for joints less than 6mm wide
±2mm for joint 6mm or more wide

However, what are the guidelines for natural stone tiles, i.e. travertine limestone which are 610mm long, 406mm wide and 12mm thick, with a joint of 2mm between tiles?

I would have though the guidelines would be different since natural stone is not even in depth across the whole tile.

I have a customer who found the BS5385 spec on google and is now trying to use it as an excuse for not paying. In fact he is threatening to take me to court for the costs of rectifying the job.

I tiled the gentlemen’s conservatory floor with this natural stone, 20 square foot worth and only one or two of the tiles have a variation of about 2 mm.’s

thanks

 

[mikethetile]

:welcome: are you saying you have 2mm lips between the tiles

 

[templar018080]

Hi there, yeah 2mm lip but only on 2 of the tiles.

Thanks

 

[DHTiling]

You cannot find BS5385 in google but you will get snippets of certain requirements from it..

Is it travertine or limestone..? and what finish is it.. honed or polished, maybe even brushed..?

 

[templar018080]

Hi there, it is travertine with a honed finish.

Thanks

 

[mikethetile]

should be able to get the floor re honed but I will leave that with the stone experts as I have little experiance with stone

 

[DHTiling]

You can sand the stone down in these area's quite easily..

Wet and dry sand paper and a sanding block, start with 50 grit till down to height and then work up in grades till around 400 grit and feather it back into surrounding tiles... this will remove the lippage and hopefully get you a happy customer.

 

[templar018080]

Thanks, I had the same thought process and even offered someone else's skills to do a sanding job, but the customer was not happy with a sanding solution. The customer wants to have the floor re-tiled which I have told him is ridiculous.

After a few weeks elapsed the customer has sent me a letter saying i had the opportunity to rectify the job and now wants to put in a claim against me for re-tiling the whole floor!!!

 

[Scott]

As long as the customer give you the opportunity to do it. I think from previous reading he has to give you the chance to put it right?

 

[DHTiling]

That is ridiculous..:mad2:

A couple tiles with lippage can just be replaced if sanding is not an option and the customer is being well OTT ..

Send a letter stating how you can rectify the floor.. send it recorded delivery so you have a record of events.

That customer does not have a leg to stand on for a re-tile through the courts..

 

[Dan]

Thanks, I had the same thought process and even offered someone else's skills to do a sanding job, but the customer was not happy with a sanding solution. The customer wants to have the floor re-tiled which I have told him is ridiculous.

After a few weeks elapsed the customer has sent me a letter saying i had the opportunity to rectify the job and now wants to put in a claim against me for re-tiling the whole floor!!!

He wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court. In fact, from what it sound like, you would actually have the better case.

If you suggest a fix, and the customer doesn't accept, it's their fault the floor is still like it is in some sense. To rip the floor up and re-tile it which could end up with even more lippage isn't the best solution for either side of the argument.

I'd say to him "I'm coming monday to fix the floor" and then just turn up and do it.

 

[Spud]

Any pictures of the floor in question?

 

[mikethetile]

you only need to rectify the faults

write back to them using registered post to tell your customer you are sending someone to rectify the problem

give them 3 dates to choose from and say if they are not conveniant which date do they suggest

you dont need to go into details just state that the lippage will be removed

this will stop their claim in its tracks and prevent them from going to court unless they give you the oppurtunity to rectify and you fail to do so

 

[templar018080]

I agree Scottley, I told the customer I would do the sanding, but he never gave me the opportunity as the customer only wanted me to relay the floor to which i said no of course.

 

[templar018080]

hey mike, that sounds like good advice. thanks

 

[Scott]

I think you got some good advice above, good luck with it and let us know how it goes.

By the way what area are you in?

 

[Dan]

hey mike, that sounds like good advice. thanks

Ahhhh, he does have the odd good spurt. :lol:

Only jesting Mike! 😀

 

[paul flight]

you must put this in writing to him . dont call it sanding as well . you are polishing the floor down ok!!! do this asap.... good luck

 

[templar018080]

hey Scottley I live in the south, poole. Some great advice from everyone thank you.

It's crazy people think they can sue for just about anything these days, and guess it can be daunting for people who aren't use to dealing with small claims threats etc. but I feel a lot more confident with this advice!

 

[Andy Allen]

sounds like a cowboy customer for once.

 

[templar018080]

hey paul, thanks! polishing the floor down does sound better.

 

[DHTiling]

Actually it is honing the floor...:smilewinkgrin:

 

[templar018080]

😳ah yes, honing it down, will look good in my response...

I'll let everyone know how it goes, so others may hopefully benefit if they come accross these new breed of cow boy customers!

 

[DJS]

Interesting read for a new starter like myself.

I agree the customers request does sound unreasonable, if there are only 2 tiles affected. They should allow you the opportunity to fix it in how you see fit.

If they demand the 2 tiles are re-laid - I would recommend honing as an initial course of action as it would be the least disruptive option. If they are not happy with results, then you could still offer to relay the 2 tiles.

Good luck with your reply and hope you end up with a satisfied customer. You do hear the odd story about people who just wanna argue to try and haggle the price down. Really hope you haven't got one of those!!

 

[cja]

Having just been through the courts from the opposite side of the process, i'd agree the customer is being unreasonable. He should give you chance to rectify - where rectification means that you have the chance to go back and 'make it good' - this is assuming that a 'reasonable' tradesperson would agree with the customer that the lip isn't acceptable. If, after you attempting to resolve then they are still not happy, then again it comes down to what is reasonable - if the only way ultimately is to remove the floor and re-do it, then that would be the course of action, but only if sanding didn't give the finish..

With something subjective like this, then reasonable is the key..

 

[templar018080]

Hi all, here’s an update on the dilemma:

I wrote several letters offering a honing solution applied to the 2 or 3 travertine tiles to reduce the slight lippage, that I could get a third party to carry out at no extra charge, if he contributed towards my material costs incurred thus far (£75).

I gave a deadline for the gentleman to reply by and pointed out that if he didn't respond in 14 days then it would be taken that he is now satisfied with the works.

Anyway he did respond, be it very short compared to my correspondence, and this was it:

Ref Conservatory flooring

We write to advise you that we do not accept your solution of the honing of the number of tiles which have degrees of lippage which gives an uneven floor surface.

We do not accept the deadine which you have given us and will not in future accept deadlines. We have taken legal advice on the matter and are awaiting survey reports and as soon as these are available we will put the matter into the Small Claims Court as we have been advised to do. We are out of the country for 12 days and will deal with situation on our return.

 

[mikethetile]

I dont understand why you asked him for a further £75

if he refused to give you a date that you can return and rectify the works he has shot himself in the foot

it doesnt matter whay he says or does now you stick to your guns

 

[mikethetile]

im sorry templar

ive just reread your original post and realised you havent been paid

waste no more time arguing with him and pm Dan for the details of a firm he knows who will help you get your money

 

[templar018080]

no worries mike, ill do that now.
cheers

 

[hillhead]

We don't need these type of crap customers,stick to the advice as above and get your money through the court!
They are just being impossible and the court will see this,keep good records of all and good luck.

 

[Pebbs]

Whooh, I missed this thread but have just gone through it all. Get onto Dan post haste, you have offered to have the area affected re-honed, and he has dismissed this. He can take all the legal advice he wants to, you have offered to correct the works as a gesture of good will, and now he is simply being totally unreasonable. Stand your ground and dont be bullied.

Pebbs