Architects Bridge or Barrier ?

[Tenchman]

Just wondering after a recent negative result on a quote, are Architects a bridge or a Barrier ?

My work as you can see from my albums and website is for restoration mainly on Victorian floors and very often on listed buildings. approx 98% of my work comes into this heading.

There are very few other Co's who have the same level of restoration work and even fewer with a craft/trade background. in the last few years i have lost out more often if an architect was involved than if there wasn't.

One gave the job to a builder who promptly mucked the job up, another was given to a domestic tiler who didn't know how to cut the tiles from the floor.

usually i deal direct with the client and that is why i'm saying bridge or barrier, if an architect is involved they get a percentage of the overall money involved in the job as well as their own fee.

If you are going through the client they get nothing, last three churches i have dealt direct with the diocese or the local pcc, with my references and pics of prvious work job was more or less a shoe in, any churches that i have dealt via an architect they have raised objections to how we get paid when we start and usually the quoted price.

generally i can guarantee if we are dealing with an architect it will end up well before the job starts as being somewhat fraught assuming the job is going ahead.

If i'm nominated via the local council conservation dept or one of the heritage organisations like Historic Scotland i can usually expect a certain amount of annoyance as if the architect is put out.

This despite the fact that there are very few Co's in the UK who carry out my type of work at our level.

Just wondered if it's the same in other areas of tiling like large contracts or domestic contracts big enough to warrant an architect.

IMO more a barrier than a bridge ! what's been your experience ?:frown5:

 

[hillhead]

No bother here with architects Steve, i haven't cracked enough big jobs i suppose.
I did tile an architects house and no probs there.
They're prob after a back hander from you,lol.

 

[Tenchman]

You might be right Joe, but i would likely be using my back hand strike with 39 years of full contact karate behind it:lol:

 

[Mike]

i've not had any dealings with them personally, but on a renovation i've just worked on the architect estimated total cost at 180k but the poor owners have spent 360k already and still not finished! i'd sue him

 

[Tenchman]

Yes and he or she will get a good whack of that.

 

[devonmark]

I did a job for a woman and her dad was a retired architect, he told here he had reservations about the trim I was using and that I was doing it wrong, he wanted to know the ins and outs of the job including the brand of Silicon that I was going to use......to stick the trim on with :mad2: he had been retired for 25yrs...

 

[Tenchman]

Typical, yet they usually have never laid a tile or done any physical work at all.
yet architects grew from stonemasons/builders, some time in the past there was a split and instead of being able to build they the architects became people who without usually ever handling tools are possessed with enough knowledge to tell crafts how to do their job?
I think if all young architects had to do a month on each of the major trades including finishing trades they would be much better to deal with ?
Cheers Steve

 

[Rob Z]

Steve, I can count on one hand the number or architects that I worked with in the last 20 years that were squared-away and on top of their game. That's a pathetic number in 20 years, isn't it?

 

[Tenchman]

hi Rob, Yes that is sad, yet pick up any directory and it is full to bursting with architects, also solicitors & insurance Co's. latter two feed each i suppose.
I even attended small contract that needed an extension added to a listed building and that was overseen by an architect, who was so clueless he was worried about me putting a caustic floor down !!!!!!!!!!!

It was encaustic tile panels ( patterned tiles Victorian style) that is how little homework that guy did, the whole job was sorted by me ,a stonemason ,a joiner, spark. etc etc. he got paid money for old rope, because it was part of the agreement somewhere that an arky be in charge ????
It will never change and the way the hierarchy works on site is abysmal, often the trades/crafts are treated with disdain by the suits and yet without them they have nothing.
same as major contractors referrring to sub-contractors as subbies in a derogatory fashion, again sub-contractors are the life blood of any building industry.

Just off today for a days demo using twister pads (diamond dust impregnated pads)going to see if they will polish up Victorian tiles that way i can stick a sheen on them if needed and seal with Dry-Treat as usual.

 

[SandyFloor]

The keyword you used in your first post is 'nominated.' It's a great place to be as you carry more clout and your payment is guaranteed even if the main contractor goes bust. The problem is if you are nominated the other parties in a contract don't like it. If an architect nominates you the main contractor doesn't like it. If the client nominates you the architect and main contractor doesn't like it. It's a control issue where they don't like being told what to do.

One of my specialities in a previous life was polished stainless steel metalwork which was very specialised and the time and my company was nominated regularly. It was a double edged sword in that if the main contractor messed you about (as they often do) you could complain to the architect but the main contractor would rarely make anything easy and weren't slow to complain about you. As I said it's a control thing.

The trick with giving advice to architects is advise them and then let them think it was their idea.

 

[Pebbs]

The trick with giving advice to architects is advise them and then let them think it was their idea,

Ohh so well put...

I was thinking about this today, and the sad fact is Ive never worked on any contract without an architect, some have been great (thats the older ones) and some have been so far up their own backside, that you end up thinking not only has the world gone mad, but there are idiots walking about out there earning good money. They can hinder and ruin a job, but if that happens, then the upshot is, its thrown back onto their plate. The upshot is like Steve knows, as well as I do you have to be in with them to get some contracts, they put you forward to the client, and you pick up the work. Doesnt matter if you cant stand the sight of them, you shut your mouth and get on with it.

The best architect I have calls me up and says what do you think we should do? he listens and we compromise and its always a good job. The worst one I ever worked with, was a woman who had just qualified, she would throw screaming fits at everyone on site, spoke to everyone like they were some kind of scumbag, wouldnt listen to anyone and the job ended up 6 months past the completion date and way over budget. She got the sack not long after demanding that a tree was to be chopped down even when it was explained there was a preservation order on it...

You have to put up and shut up..truth be told...

Lynn

 

[tfs]

The hell with the architects if they dont appreciated your knowledge and skills.

Just a shame that it is gonna be the customers who suffer.

 

[Rob Z]

This follows on to the designers. I have had, by and large, terrible designers on my jobsites. On our current site, this dingbat has been so bad and so meddlesome for so long, that I can't handle it much longer.

I'm about to let her crash and burn, however, and get my gloats in after almost nine months of nails-on-the-chalkboard-agony dealing with her.

She is ordering two large cabinets to go into a home office that we are remodeling. I know they won't fit up the stairs and make the turn. I told the homeowner and he sent out an email to the designer. She immediately responded like she always does and negated what I said "Oh it will be no problem". :mad2:

Well, I've covered for her long enough. I've said my piece and it's in writing. Miss Designer is going to find that she will have to hire a crane to get these cabinets to the second floor deck, which is about 30 feet above street level.

 

[Tenchman]

It's a good job they can't see this info:lol: Lynn i know it's horrendous dealing someone who acts as if they are God's gift to construction, however i disagree with putting up and keeping quiet.

If it gets to that point i have in the past asked for a mediator, so i don't kill them, or offered to wait until the main contract is finished or remove my section of the work under specialist contractor exceptions.

Plus i never sign any of the dom,or other main construction contracts , only happened once and i got screwed over lost £30,000.

I have two contract forms, one simple and relevant up to about £40,000 the other slightly more complicated and covers stuff like non-start on agreed dates which means we get paid day rates on top of our agreed fee until the job starts that has been very handy a few times.

This means either the Client signs our contract or the arky or main contractor usually the latter two wriggle and it goes back to the client which is fine by me and i prefer it that way. Means i always get paid even if the contractor goes bump which has happened they pop up with a different name later having ruined other peoples lives in the process.

If it gets heated i offer to leave the contract and given it is usually a listed building and the floor is one of the last things to do that makes the two parties =contractor & arky see red as they won't get paid if the floor is unfinished plus it would contravene health & safety etc etc.

I also point out that in any biz directory like yell online or the paper one that there are pages & pages of arky's & builders but that my skill set is not likely to be found.

Therefore they could easily be replaced for breach of contract and i still would be onsite. That is really enjoyable.

realise it can't always be that way for some of us but i'm really a very stubborn swine and plus if they want the floor done and i have the conservation officer on my side & the client they have to cave in or look like idiots ( mind they do that as well lol )

Rob let me know how that goes ? had a young arky once tell me that after we lifted 60 sq metres of a Vic floor =encaustic & geometric = stunning floor.

he reckoned that the original floor wasn't level and that we should put the
floor back down level!!!
I said that the floor would have to back exactly as the original albiet with a new screed in place, was told he was the person in charge and to do as i was told :mad2: thought OK got an AI ( architects instruction ) told client he said no prob .

Put new screed down level .............. you guessed it ? every door had to come off and we had to put small steps going in & out of room :lol: the original floor was flat but not level.

arky practice was sacked and charged with costs for digging up screed and re-doing it ( didn't put tiles down obviously nor the doors on )

laughed my head off though.

sorry to hear that we all still suffer though , surely one day there will be jobs that everyone understands that there are crafts & trades who are brilliant & know what they are talking about and arky's who are just book learnt impractical time wasters.

there are a few arky's who are good though have only met three so far in 38 years on the job so not good odds. Cheers Steve

 

[Ajax123]

At least the question is multiple choice. A good architect is a great asset to any project. Trouble is there are lots of architects out there who are good at drawing pictures and designing fancy buildings but have absolutely no idea whatso ever how to build anything. An arrogant architect is probably the worst barrier to any project........he who says "I know best so will not need your ideas" is the worst barrier of all. I am sorry that particular mr architect you do not know best and if you will just get your head out of your backside far enough to uncover your ears and listen you will probably learn a great deal.....having said that I met a really top notch architect today....really nice guy...listened and discussed and analysed the ideas I was putting forward and I was happy that he did not accept some of them because he did it in such a way as to not make me feel bad about putting them forward. At the same time he did accept some of the ideas and is moving forward with my product in the project.....I suspect he will also do it properly thus exploiting the many benefits of the product without falling into some of its pitfalls.....

In other words I am on the fence on this one....