Advice on how to proceed

[rachel]

We had a loft extension built over the summer with an ensuite shower with tiling over 3 walls.
There were some teething problems with the plumbing in the shower (2 leaks), then we carried on having a leak, but it seemed to be leaking through the grout. Some Silicon was apply to areas of grout to see if it stopped the leaking.
The builder blamed the poor quality of the grout we had purchased and indeed the grout seemed to be cracking in many areas in the shower. Then some cracked tiles appeared. The builder then told us the tiles we had bought were 'weak'.

Whilst we didn't believe this the builder refused to do anything to the shower until we had got some feedback from the tile supplier (Fired Earth). 5 weeks or so later we finally managed to get a Fired Earth installer around who concluded there had been substrate movement and that as the tiles were fixed onto marine ply (which they said it couldn't really be as it was too expensive) there must have been some movement. Cracking in the grout remained to a certain extent unexplained although we think the tiler didn't add Flexibond to the grout.
Despite all these problems, the overall look of the shower wasn't bad (I know it sounds terrible to say that) and the tiler employed by the builder had done a reasonably neat job.
Having heard from FE we had a meeting with the builder who agreed to replace the cracked tiles and remove the cracked grout then regrout, presenting it all as a big favour to us.
On the day the builder sent one of the young chap who works for him to remove the tiles. The tiler who had done a good job before put some new tiles in and left. When we had a look that evening we realised that none of the old grout had been removed. The builder said they would buy a special tool and do it the next day. The next day, bits of the old grout were removed but most remained. The new tiles were grouted with the new grout and the new grout was smeared over the old grout (or some of it), not by the tiler but by the young chap.

Most of the tiles are covered in a film of grout, some will required scrubbing before coming off. Between the old grout and the new, Fired Earth changed grout suppliers so the 2 grouts look different, very different in fact. The builder also left the Silicon that had been applied. The chap who applied the new grout left a tiny hole in one of the new lines of grout. I have just realised that this was filled with Silicon.

Basically we are not happy with what's been redone. I just want to ask members their views on this situation and any ideas on how to proceed. The leaking has stopped after the regrouting and the builder seems to think all's well... Thanks in advance and sorry for the rambling...

 

[Daz]

Hi & welcome to TF Rachel.

It sounds as though you have had bit of a nightmare. Before posting too many comments, it would be very useful if you can provide a few pics, please?

 

[White Room]

Would'nt use ply of any discription on the walls, no tanking advised in a loft conversion.......

The ply sounds like it has flexed and caused the grout to crack

 

[Prem Tiler]

Oh dear. Where abouts are you? There may be a member on here could come round and have a look for you.

 

[kilty55]

hello,the second you said the tiles were cracking i knew thay had used ply,ply is not a good substrate to use on walls in a bathroom and i have seen this problem before,if it has bowed,swelled/shifted in some way which it seems it has then simply re fixing tiles is not appropriate.

if it was me i would want the wall stripped and re boarded without plywood thenr e tiled

any pics?

 

[Sean Kelly]

Rachel, Was the leak coming through the grout at the bottom of the shower wall? and was that the reason why the Silicon was put there? Removing tiles & regrouting will not stop a leak. My guess is that the leak is still there. Fired Earth say that there has been substrate movement. However, this has not been addressed. How long ago was the shower regrouted? Where did you buy your original grout from? As Capt Slow says we need pics please. Cheers Sean

 

[Alan.P]

hello,the second you said the tiles were cracking i knew thay had used ply,ply is not a good substrate to use on walls in a bathroom and i have seen this problem before,if it has bowed,swelled/shifted in some way which it seems it has then simply re fixing tiles is not appropriate.

if it was me i would want the wall stripped and re boarded without plywood thenr e tiled

any pics?

Spot on mate, I wouldn't use ply on any floor level wall, let alone an attic, with it's change in temperature it's bound to move. If anything, it should be PB and the whole lot tanked for peace of mind, imagine the destruction that a leak on the top floor is going to do, my advice, rip it out and start again now, try and recoup some money off the builder, it was a builder and not a tiler ( why ) otherwise, this isn't going to go away, in my humble opinion that is.

 

[faithhealer]

welcome rachel, these leaks, do you mean plumbing leaks or water leaking through wall/ceiling

 

[Bathfix Bob]

I agree with Sean,

The fact that the repair was bodged in irelavent, the substrate is still moving and will fail againn and again until its sorted properly no matter how many times its been retiled.

 

[diamondtiling]

Welcome to the forum

No amount of repairs will stop these problems Rachel, the builder has made a massive mistake at the preparation stage.

 

[Scott]

I know ply isnt sutiable but there has to be some allowance here for the movement caused by settlement of the new roof. You cant cut out rafters in a roof, brace them up elsewhere and expect the thing not to move afterwards. I say this from experience as im currently in the middle of my new roof and the movement throught the house, including downstairs is huge.

I thinkthe biggest problem with the ply up in the loft space is the expansion and contraction of the board as the temperatures can be extreme if its not properly insulated. This causes the board to do things a cement backer board or plaster board wouldnt do and thats expand

 

[rachel]

Thanks a lot for your replies. I have a couple of pics and will try and send them.

The conversion was done in the summer. Most of the shower was fitted and tiled end of July. We were away as work was going on through the rest of the house too and we have a baby. When we returned the only thing that remained to be done in the loft was the fitting of the shower head and its support. By then the builder had declared the job completed and moved on to his next job. He sent his plumber round to do the fitting.
So here is what happened from then on.
Plumber fitted shower head/support
Next morning we use the shower for the first time and water comes leaking down on first floor of the house.
Plumber finds he drilled through a pipe to fit the shower head support
We use shower again still leaking.
Plumber comes round - a hole is made in first floor bathroom ceiling to find cause of the leak - this time the waste is found to have come loose.
We use shower again - still leaking but at a much slower rate.
Builder comes round with Silicon and puts Silicon along the inside of most of the shower enclosure (wrong according to enclosure manufacturer)
Shower still leaking when used - Client's showering style is then blamed and more Silicon applied.
Shower still leaks. Builder comes round and puts more Silicon.
Following day some cracks appeared in some tiles, and then within the course of a week or so about 8 tiles become cracked in various areas of the shower. Upon closer inspection it also becomes obvious that grout is cracking in many areas in the shower.
Builder is called but doesn't seem to know what to do. Says the grout was rubbish and the tiles are weak. All Fired Earth stuff.
I then decide to test various areas of the shower to see if I can see anything. It seems that water is being soaked by some areas of grout in the shower. When the shower spray is directed in some areas of the shower water started leaking through.
I then told the builder I wasn't happy that so much Silicon has been applied and that nothing was being done to sort this out in a sensible way -- ie to try and find out the real cause of the problem.

After we got FE round (6 weeks later) he finally agreed to come back and remove the broken tiles and have a look behind. The deal was that he would look behind for any signs of movement or damage, then remove the cracked grout, replace the broken tiles then regrout. However he just said it wasn't wet behind (well it wouldn't be as we hadn't used the shower for weeks). He struggled to remove the grout which he said was like cement and said he would buy a special tool for this. But then the next day we realised that the old grout hadn't even been touched. The day after bits of grout was removed.

All along he has blamed the grout. What's difficult for us too is that the Fired Earth grout that was first used has been discontinued and they have brought out a new range of grout which we have had to use for this new regrout as none of the old one was left.
He seems to think he has done us a big favour by coming back. Although I understand from your comments that the tile installation was wrong in the first place at least the tiling/grouting was aesthetically quite neat and tidy. The new work is not good and it's like the builder can't be bothered anymore and we are worried about him coming back in case he makes matters even worse.

We thought we were supposed to give a tradesman a chance to put things right so that is why we agreed for the tiles to be removed -- also I guess we were hoping the real cause for the leak to be found.

At the moment he still has our keys, hasn't given us gas/electricity certificates and hasn't done a few other things around the house and we think he is waiting for us to say we will pay him the final completion payment for him to hand these over and mend our first floor bathroom ceiling. I guess the fact taht the shower doesn't seem to leak anymore -- we still have a hole in our first floor bathroom so we can check that --- will make him say he has sorted it all out and expect the money.

We would probably like to get someone else to sort things out but I guess are worried about the consequences and feel quite stupid for going along with all the siliconing etc in the first place. The builder came to us highly recommended and we were quite happy it all unravelled...

 

[faithhealer]

get those pictures for us rachel and we'll go from there. think you are going to have to dig in here for a while. Builders dont like giving money back. as you say, the inside of a shower shouldn't be siliconed so that any trapped water can flow back into the tray

 

[Bathfix Bob]

You say Rachel some tiles have now cracked? Is this a wet room type shower?

Then again it can't be if you have an enclosure, we are talking about wall tiles aren't we?

Whatever happens don't hand over that final payment yet till its sorted properly.

 

[jay]

pics would help

 

[Scott]

He should have given you the certificates if the job was completed in the summer. You will need them to get the job signed off by building control assuming its a legit conversion and meets building regs. You are in a tricky situation regarding the final payment and him having the certificates as he will want his money before handing them over and you want it all put right and your certificates before you make the final payment.

Try and upload the pics, you will need to resize them to get them on

Edit: Where about are you Rachael?

 

[rachel]

Thanks again for your replies. Attached are pics of the regrouting done about 10 days ago which we are not happy with. Difficult maybe to see as it's all white but there is Silicon/grout where there shouldn't be.

One of the posters asked if it was a wet room. No it's a shower with sliding door on marine plywood, over three walls. Some mat tiles from Fired Earth, with a mosaic band about two third up the wall. Products used to fix/grout the tiles were Fired Earth.

First we had plumbing problems as soon as the shower head was in place - described in previous post. Then water carried on leaking down in the room below but apparently not from a plumbing problem.
It appeared water was going through the grout.
About 2 weeks after that, a total of 8 wall tiled cracked over the 3 walls (all below the mosaic) with 2 tiles cracked on the left wall, 5 on the wall facing the shower screen, 1 on the right hand wall (where the shower head is). The tiles were cracked in half, apart from one on the left wall which is cracked in a corner. On the wall facing the shower screen, there was a linear line emerging in the cracking. However, on the other walls, there was no particular pattern. In addition, the grout was cracking in many places in the shower, both horizontally and vertically. It looked like the grout has coming away from the tiles.
The builder didn't want to remove cracked tiles or investigate further claiming we needed a guarantee from the tile company that it wasn't the tiles or their grout. The tile company agreed to send someone who concluded to bad workmanship/substrate movement.
We put that to the builder who said his tiler would remove cracked tiles and an area of tiles on the wall where it appeared the grout was soaking the water and have a look. He also said he would remove the grout and regrout. Tiles were removed and replaced but not the grout. The builder didn't mention it to us when he left for the day. We noticed it and phoned him that evening. He then explained the 'old' grout was like cement. We insisted that he had agreed to remove any areas of cracked grout - the following day a small proportion of 'old' grout were removed but new grout was applied (or should I say smeared) on top of the old.
The leaking has apparently stopped or maybe another layer of Silicon was applied somewhere we don't know. But it seems to us that water is still probably getting behind the tiles (there are still cracked grout in area + there is a tiny hole in the new grout) though we can't prove it as there is no leak.


Your views on
- quality of workmanship on regrout-- we think it's bad but don't want to be unfair.
- what to do next - having agreed that he would only replace the tiles/regrout, and not the substrate, can we now turn round and say it's not satisfactory ...
- do we need to give him another chance to correct the regrout?

Thanks in advance and apologies for the waffling

 

[mikethetile]

oh dear

no its not an acceptable finish

 

[rachel]

Yes it's all legit we have building control certificate now but were supposed to get 2 separate certificates for gas/electricity.
The question is also can we trust him to not come back and do a worse job than the first time round. He is very annoyed with us for questioning the way he does things.

He should have given you the certificates if the job was completed in the summer. You will need them to get the job signed off by building control assuming its a legit conversion and meets building regs. You are in a tricky situation regarding the final payment and him having the certificates as he will want his money before handing them over and you want it all put right and your certificates before you make the final payment.

Try and upload the pics, you will need to resize them to get them on

Edit: Where about are you Rachael?

 

[doug boardley]

Deary me, that is not good at all.

 

[Scott]

Poor grouting!

 

[Scott]

The builder didn't want to remove cracked tiles or investigate further claiming we needed a guarantee from the tile company that it wasn't the tiles or their grout. The tile company agreed to send someone who concluded to bad workmanship/substrate movement.

Would he have had the same stance had it been a brick wall that had cracked? Im sure he wouldnt have asked the brick manufacturers about their bricks? Of course not as any builder knows they will only crack like that due to movement. This case is the same

 

[jay]

not acceptable work there and i think that you are in for more problems ahead:mad2:

 

[rachel]

Thanks a lot.. All comments v. appreciated. Have been treated a bit as if we were making it all up/exaggerating by the builder so we want to come prepared when we next approach him.

I would also welcome suggestions on what to do next - having agreed that he would only replace the tiles/regrout (ie a half baked job from what you've all said) and not the substrate, can we now turn round and say it's not satisfactory ...
- do we need to give him another chance to correct the regrout ie probably retile as well as I can't imagine he'll be able to regrout? We really unsure where we stand there. Trust has been lost there and we dread to think what will happens next ...

 

[diamondtiling]

I have had a quick read through, has he applied tanking behind these tiles? His grout is shoddy and looks as though it was mixed very wet when applied. Whilst you have issues with the substrate you are never going to fix this problem. He is not a tiler and nor were the chaps he used to fix the tiles, he really needs to hold his hand up and admit his mistakes.
His first serious error was thinking that tiling is easy, next time maybe he will use a pro.
Where are you Rachel? maybe a member on here is close by and can have a look for you?

 

[Deleted member 9966]

Rachel

I think you now need a report from a qualified and trusted source to confirm that the job done isn't satisfactory. You can commission the TTA to do one at around £700 however other people in this situation have hired a trusted tiler to come in and do the report for less of a fee. I'm sure if you tell us where in the country you are, we would have enough professional members on this forum to find one near to you who can at least come out and inspect the work you've had done.

And personally, if you think it's now going to be a battle with the builder, you need to consider spending the money on appointing a solicitor to fight this battle on your behalf. This could get extremely messy as the builder is witholding safety certs etc.

We hope you're able to get this sorted quickly but we've seen more and more jobs like this recently.

Liz

 

[rachel]

SW London. We had a couple of people in while we were waiting for the FE installer to come round, ie before the regrout. One said the same as the FE installer. The other was offering a more piecemeal approach ie have a look behind see any signs of damage then retile/regrout.
The builder used a tiler to put the tiles in place -- adhesive stage -- but all the initial prep stages and subsequent regrouting were done by builders. We doubt he's really going to put his hands up. When it carried on leaking after the initial plumbing leaks were found we had to put up with all sorts of veiled accusations, such as our showering style, the fact that we were spraying water straight on the screen. This led to all the siliconing around the showering screen. In hindsight we should have put our foot down then.

 

[rachel]

We have sth from the Fired Earth installer in writing that states the work is bad workmanship. Would that be enough, now that the work has been regrouted? Having had him back after that to do the regrouting though would that invalidate it? That's our worries now...

Rachel

I think you now need a report from a qualified and trusted source to confirm that the job done isn't satisfactory. You can commission the TTA to do one at around £700 however other people in this situation have hired a trusted tiler to come in and do the report for less of a fee. I'm sure if you tell us where in the country you are, we would have enough professional members on this forum to find one near to you who can at least come out and inspect the work you've had done.

And personally, if you think it's now going to be a battle with the builder, you need to consider spending the money on appointing a solicitor to fight this battle on your behalf. This could get extremely messy as the builder is witholding safety certs etc.

We hope you're able to get this sorted quickly but we've seen more and more jobs like this recently.

Liz

 

[diamondtiling]

Put your foot down now, actually put it up......his backside and sort him put, if you feel intimidated then get someone to be there when you confront him because that needs to happen. This guy just wants the rest of the money Rachel.

 

[Scott]

I cant see much wrong with the fixing just the grouting. From what i can make out in the pictures they are flat and level, may be its my eyesight

 

[Deleted member 9966]

Rachel

You would need to speak to a solicitor to confirm whether the reports and evidence you have been given is enough to pursue the builder for damages. Unfortunately we're not qualified legal professionals here and each case is different and will be taken on its own merits. You still have options, and I think the best thing to do would be to find a lawyer local to you that deals with disputes of this kind.

You could always contact Dom Littlewood from TV fame from his C5 show Cowboy Builders