Large format popped around edges
- Thread starter Gary Lee
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- canada format large large format
B
Bill
tiles are concaved then..........
T
Tile Shop
Large format.... UFH.... was the tiler called Kev by any chance?
I agree that retailers do need to step up their game - but it can be very difficult.
Generally, I sell the tiles to the householder. The likelihood of them knowing anything about anhydrite screeds and RH readings is little or none. Then when you add in anti-fracture matting, expansion joints, back buttering, notch size, levelling clips, grout joint width etc - it just gets worse! Often the contractor doesn't know these things, so then has to ask the tiler. As I've stated before, most tilers I come across are nowhere near the top of the game as many of you guys on here, so they don't know the answer!
Frequently, my information comes too late. Screed/bifold door levels have already been installed - which can leave no room for certain decouplers or for a deeper bed of adhesive. The cost of install almost certainly hasn't included the matting or levelling clips. Definitely not any sort of premium for a tiler who is capable of a quality install on anything larger than a 60x60.
I'm helping a member of my wife's family at the moment who is doing a large project in South London. Hopefully I got involved early enough to help avoid many of these issues.
My Tilemaster rep is always willing to help regarding RH testing, and the tech guys are always on hand to give fantastic advice whenever needed.
Generally, I sell the tiles to the householder. The likelihood of them knowing anything about anhydrite screeds and RH readings is little or none. Then when you add in anti-fracture matting, expansion joints, back buttering, notch size, levelling clips, grout joint width etc - it just gets worse! Often the contractor doesn't know these things, so then has to ask the tiler. As I've stated before, most tilers I come across are nowhere near the top of the game as many of you guys on here, so they don't know the answer!
Frequently, my information comes too late. Screed/bifold door levels have already been installed - which can leave no room for certain decouplers or for a deeper bed of adhesive. The cost of install almost certainly hasn't included the matting or levelling clips. Definitely not any sort of premium for a tiler who is capable of a quality install on anything larger than a 60x60.
I'm helping a member of my wife's family at the moment who is doing a large project in South London. Hopefully I got involved early enough to help avoid many of these issues.
My Tilemaster rep is always willing to help regarding RH testing, and the tech guys are always on hand to give fantastic advice whenever needed.
O
Old Mod
Sounds like you are willing to do more, which is brilliant, I wish more would even bother to find out.
How about producing a fact sheet to go with your sales, you could include the main bullet points and suggest that they quiz their installer too.
Very recently I heard of a fixer who
was ‘having a go’ at ex large format, he lasted one tile. And was asked to leave.
O
Old Mod
Not that I’m cynical or anything 😀 do you fear that if you give away too much information, it will harm your sales?
I appreciate it’s a tough question, and you may find it difficult to be completely honest about it.
I thought I’d still ask tho. 🙄
A good idea - the issues are that I'm no expert, and there are more than one way of doing things correctly . . .
People sometimes just think I'm trying to sell them more stuff!
Katrina and I always back butter tiles. I think the use of clips gives people a false sense of security. They have their uses but the fundamentals of tiling need to be met first. We always take up the odd tile to see if it has maximum coverage !
D
Dumbo
Its not true, my wife phoned and ask me to pick something up for her from the shop and it was half day Wednesday
O
One Day
Anyone considered that with very large format tiles, the curing/drying (two different things which affect the other) can vary and affect curling of the tile?
I'm not saying I know it's a fact, but if adhesive cures at different rates and loses water at different rates underneath a large tile, it could potentially curl a tile???
I've been watching this thread from the off, and without a step by step on the OP's install, we're all just guessing.
I'm not saying I know it's a fact, but if adhesive cures at different rates and loses water at different rates underneath a large tile, it could potentially curl a tile???
I've been watching this thread from the off, and without a step by step on the OP's install, we're all just guessing.
J
J Sid
Doesn't the tile adhesive dry at different rates under all porcelain tiles? Much more noticeable under larger format tiles.
I sure we have all had to lift a tile which has been down a week or more and the adhesive in the middle of the tile still looks to have moisture in it compared to the edges.
Would this mean a 12mm porcelain tile would bend / curl …. I would be amazed.
I sure we have all had to lift a tile which has been down a week or more and the adhesive in the middle of the tile still looks to have moisture in it compared to the edges.
Would this mean a 12mm porcelain tile would bend / curl …. I would be amazed.
W
Waluigi
Just me guessing but.........Being concave makes more sense with the edges coming up. Clips are used to pull edges down. Tiles try to revert back to their normal state when Heat is applied.
I
Italy
now you're going over ....
a porcelain tile does not fold
until you cut it and lose tension.
it is taught at elementary schools.
a porcelain tile does not fold
until you cut it and lose tension.
it is taught at elementary schools.
J
J Sid
I've pulled 900x900 tiles flat with clips in wet ufh before and never had a problem but that was on sand and cement screed and layed correctly.
If on a screed with a high moisture level and no ditra I could imagine the adhesive around the edge is constantly damp an not drying and sticking to the tile, tile edges becoming unstuck.
If on a screed with a high moisture level and no ditra I could imagine the adhesive around the edge is constantly damp an not drying and sticking to the tile, tile edges becoming unstuck.
W
Waluigi
I agree with your statement. Also throw in the heat to an adhesive that hasn’t cured and it reminds me of a bimetallic strip bending.
Mark W Smith
TF
i agree with others that a 10mm seration only is insufficient for bonding a 12mm large format tile, I never tile directly to the ribs, always back butter the back of the tile but with large format always aerate the back of the tile, this will also help with the concern of levelling clips pulling the tile from the adhesive bed.
Tiling onto a gypsum screed with a cement based adhesive is something I don’t do either, I would have used a decoupling matting fixed down with a gypsum based adhesive first then cement based on top of matting.
Did you take note of the pot life of the adhesive and also the open tile as this could be something as simple as the adhesive skinning over or still being used from the bucket after recommended pot life.
Never used Norcros before and I can’t seem to download a data sheet on the adhesive you have used to find out pot life and open time ( did you check this before using?....if so did you adhere to these times?
2mm to 10mm bed depth doesn’t give me much
confidence either......I always like to use an adhesive that allows up to 15mm.......ultra SPES is my choice as maximum bed depth is 20mm not that you would bed out that much but just my preference you don’t need to be concerned with bed depth so much when laying large format onto a bad floor.
I think the fact you didn’t do a moisture test on the screed first could be a concern too.
Anyway I hope you get to the bottom of it and rectify the issue so you don’t have this problem again for future installations.
Tiling onto a gypsum screed with a cement based adhesive is something I don’t do either, I would have used a decoupling matting fixed down with a gypsum based adhesive first then cement based on top of matting.
Did you take note of the pot life of the adhesive and also the open tile as this could be something as simple as the adhesive skinning over or still being used from the bucket after recommended pot life.
Never used Norcros before and I can’t seem to download a data sheet on the adhesive you have used to find out pot life and open time ( did you check this before using?....if so did you adhere to these times?
2mm to 10mm bed depth doesn’t give me much
confidence either......I always like to use an adhesive that allows up to 15mm.......ultra SPES is my choice as maximum bed depth is 20mm not that you would bed out that much but just my preference you don’t need to be concerned with bed depth so much when laying large format onto a bad floor.
I think the fact you didn’t do a moisture test on the screed first could be a concern too.
Anyway I hope you get to the bottom of it and rectify the issue so you don’t have this problem again for future installations.
that the floor was wet when you lifted the floor protector gives you the answer. The floor was not dry. Whether this was from the screed (probably) or the adhesive or a combination is not really possible to say based on description so far. The cement based adhesive will have reacted with the sulphates in the screed causing a partial delamination as the tiles wanted to return to their original concave shape so all the pressure was on the edges. I have seen tis a few times in the past and in all cases the edge failure was followed by a general failure as the reaction will continue whilst the floor is higher than 0.5% moisture. also when the tiles are trafficked there is a lot of stress on the adhesive bond due to the tiles moving. Its a remove and replace I'm afraid.
Remove the tiles and treat the screed as if you had done nothing i.e. re sand it, check it for moisture properly and then retile using a gypsum based tile adhesive and back butter the tiles. I'm not sure though if the vertical stress on the adhesive due to the tiles wanting t curl will overcome the sheer strength of the adhesive or its bond with the screed.
Remove the tiles and treat the screed as if you had done nothing i.e. re sand it, check it for moisture properly and then retile using a gypsum based tile adhesive and back butter the tiles. I'm not sure though if the vertical stress on the adhesive due to the tiles wanting t curl will overcome the sheer strength of the adhesive or its bond with the screed.
T
Time's Ran Out
Apart from the moisture the adhesive used states suitable for anhydrate screeds but there is no rh readings on the packaging!
O
Old Mod
Yeah a lot do now John, what they actually mean is that it must be primed first, which I feel is very misleading to be honest.
It’s just an S1 cementitious adhesive, so it would depend on your interpretation of the word ‘suitable’ much in the same way that hardiebacker is ‘impervious’ to water. 😵
John Wheway
TF
Back buttering would have helped on tiles that are so big for sure but those levelling clips simply lift the tiles out the adhesive. I used them once and can remember having a problem with the tiles creaking as you walked on the corners as there was insufficient bed in the corners due to the lift of the clips.
O
Old Mod
Not going to get in to a clip debate in this thread, but if that problem occurs due to clips being used, it’s because they’ve been used incorrectly.
There are numerous threads on the forum that address this issue.
L
LM
Couldn’t agree more Marc.
I would just suck this one up Gary if you can afford it and put it down to experience, we all have to eat a shilt sandwich every now and then, I've eaten one or two over the years. The insurance co will have their pound of flesh in the long run and more besides.
There are similar tiling threads here
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