Discuss I'm Stuck - Wish My Tiles Were in the Tiling Forum area at TilersForums.com

M

My dog's called Trevor

Hi all
Interested in views from the trade world about how I should deal with a big floor tiling **** up. Basically I'm wondering how far I should be pushing my builder to put things right. I've had porcelain floor tiles laid dot-and-dab (sorry, you must all be so bored of that topic) over under-floor heating and am now nearing a dispute of whether several grands' worth of back-pedaling is needed to put the job right.
Bit of background on me on this sort of stuff. Not a pro in the building trade but not blowing my trumpet to say I'm pretty handy on most things around the house - basic repairs, medium size building work, plumbing, electrics, tiling, papering, plastering, and servicing the car until the things became so complicated that you don't recognise anything under the bonnet anymore. My missus says I'm a bit of a perfectionist but I just want to get things right as I don't like the idea of being a DIY botch merchant. Not the fastest in the world but I err on the safe side, ask when I don't know, and am prepared to rip it out and go back to the start when I've got it wrong - which as the years and experience go by is pleasingly rare. Big projects (loft conversion, extension, new central heating) I've had people in (time, effort, feeling older these days). I've had guys I've sacked off jobs when I know I could've done it better and guys I've just been blown away by. This is just to set the scene that I am not completely ignorant when talking to builders etc (relevance apparent later) and not prone to knocking tradesmen just for the sake of it.
Background on the mess I'm in now. Job was a kitchen extension - side return and old lean-to plus a few bits in the neighbouring utility room. Floor for old kitchen was and remains suspended timber, new floor to the side and end of this is concrete. Good job from the builder structurally, really good, would have him back but only for building. Part of the job price was laying the electric (loose cable) UFH and tiling the floor.
In December he laid the UFH cable then the tiles dot-and-dab. Looks like UFH absolutely beyond a doubt has to be laid in a bed (no previous personal experience). For the tiling, I have laid three floors - the old kitchen area twice and the utility room once. All three needed a power breaker to get them up. I'm not an expert but I know if getting them up doesn't break them, they weren't laid right. All mine were a sod to get up. I queried dot-and-dab method with the builder. Told me it'd be fine, done-loads-like-this-and-never-had-a-problem, plus floor not level etc. Apparently self-leveling compound wouldn't have been an option (?). Instinctively UFH cables surrounded by air struck me as pretty effective insulation (think secondary glazing, layers of clothes when it's cold) but he had some interesting ideas on hot air rising to the tiles that didn't really fit with my understanding of physics (I have a scientific background). Against better judgement and with time-constraints I was reassured that if there were any problems he would put them right. To be fair, he hasn't deserted yet.
Kitchen was then fitted on the floor - units along three walls with and an island. Stone work surfaces on top. Wasn't crazy money but far from the cheaper end of the market (that's my missus).
Floor was basically alright to begin with except that it sounded like walking on a xylophone with the different note of each tile with a void underneath. Then a tile started to knock when you stepped on where a dot was coming loose underneath, then another did it and so on.
To his credit he came round to look at it. I managed to dissuade him from his plan of drilling small holes around the edges of tiles and squirting in expanding foam to fill the void and adhere the tile. For me the insulation properties of the foam seemed a bad plan for UFH, and I wasn't convinced it would work anyway and managed to dissuade him on the lines of the possibility of hitting an UFH cable.
After some chats we agreed to try and get up some of the loose tiles. I offered to do that with him. After taking up a few it was apparent that it was only the grout keeping the tiles there. After cutting through the grout each tile lifted easily. Hardly a blob of adhesive has been left on the back of any tile - they look straight out of the shop (turns out he's not sure for certain what adhesive he used).
We just did a couple to start and I indulged him in his experiment to lay one by filing the void with expanding foam with Gripfill on the remaining adhesive dobs. Great experiment. It holds pretty well (but still sounds hollow) but the UFH beautifully heats where the dots are and the rest of the tile stays cold until the heat conducts through the tile. For anyone who lays UFH I'd be happy to chit-chat on some of what I'm seeing that absolutely confirms manufacturers' fitting instructions - except it should all be pretty obvious, it's a bit like bothering actually to test jumping from a plane without a parachute (never formally tested but we all know the result).
We agreed to lift all those that we could without disturbing the kitchen units and did so without damaging the UFH (they come up that easily).
There is/was a plan to remove some of the dots for each tile, leaving a dot at each corner so that a bed of adhesive could be laid in the remaining space but with the dot keeping the level for relaying with Gripfill on top of the old dots to hold the tile at those points. For tiles not lifted because they extend under kitchen units' end panels, they've have expanding foam squirted under (no UFH there) to fill the void, then as much adhesive pushed under as can be achieved, to hold the edge .
Last night after many hours of dissecting dots and dabs away from UFH cable and off the foam insulation tile backer boards stuck to the sub-floor, I started to lose it. In parts of the floor, the insulation is tearing badly and where foam has been squirted under less-accessible tiles, I can't hear a difference when I knock on them. Some of the dots that are due to have Gripfill on them knock against the floor beneath so, presumably lifting the tiles, however easy, is disturbing the adhesion between the sub-floor and the insulation boards. Gripfill on these dots is always going to knock unless by luck it gets held by enough adhesive around it.
This is about where I lost it. None of this is right. I'm looking at hours of work, much of which I have offered to do (not fundamentally opposed to that), in which I have decreasing confidence of an effective, long term outcome, for which I paid and questioned when it was in progress.
That was a long preamble but here is my dilemma. I am increasingly coming to the view that there is no way to get it right than to go back to where things started to go wrong. To do that I can't see a way other than dismantling the installed kitchen, getting the tiles up, leveling the floor (might include grinding off adhesive for the insulation boards), then UFH with insulation, tiling the floor and reinstalling the kitchen. I have suggested this but it is understandably not well received. I have indulged/am still indulging in his suggestions of how to right things but I'm wondering if this is just pissing in the wind.
I do get my builder's reluctance. Shifting the kitchen will need to shift the stone work tops. It's likely these will break (cut for cookers, sink etc). I'd not be surprised that getting back to a floor that can be done properly will cost 2-3 grand for kitchen dis-assembly/assembly, 2 grand for work tops if they can't be saved, couple of hundred for insulation board, and around 700 for UFH cable. I'm not worried on a grand's worth of tiles - they're a doddle to get up as nothing's holding them. I get the costs involved of going right back to get it right but I'm looking at around 25k of units and kitchen machines, in a project that cost around 70-80k. Without fitting (which was in the price), the UFH and tiles come to less than 2k - which bit would I want to save?
What thoughts from the trade? How much more should we try foam, pushing in proper adhesive, prayer, pixie dust? When is it reasonable to draw a line and say that we go back to where the wrong turn was taken, whatever the costs? Who should incur those costs? Am I being unreasonable or unreasonably fussy? Despite the numbers above, I'm not loaded - I took out a mortgage to do this and I'll be paying it forever.
Finally if anyone's got a great idea, I'm all ears.
Thanks if you bothered to read this far
Regards
Matt
 
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OP
M

My dog's called Trevor

Did'nt think any insurance would cover for bad workmanship....
Found myself saying " oh my god!" Looking at the pics. You have been extremely patient with this guy. You seem a great customer, but there is only one way to sort this , that is to rip it all out and start again. The builder should have public and professional insurance, you should be claiming on that to put this right.

Hope it all works out.

Thanks Chalker
A
I have professional indemnity insurance, this covers for workmanship. Hopefully he has, or you might have to sue him.
Either way, it's not your fault.
I have professional indemnity insurance, this covers for workmanship. Hopefully he has, or you might have to sue him.
Either way, it's not your fault.
I have professional indemnity insurance, this covers for workmanship. Hopefully he has, or you might have to sue him.
Either way, it's not your fault.


Responses coming thick and fast and I haven't been able to keep up. Hard replying to everyone so thanks to those I've not responded to directly - Chalker, Whitebeam, Julian, 3 Fall as well as those who've I've responded to through the day.
Started this thread about 24 hours ago and Cam was responding at about 2am. Turned in now, bless him, and who could blame him?
Looking back at my original post I was after a bit of expert opinion on how hard to push for what was emerging for me as the only solution to what's happened. Quite clear I have that now. In a much stronger position to push for what needs to be done to get it right. I've got a pretty good idea of how things should go if it reaches deadlock and I have to say 'Shall we get a second opinion or two?' Think I've already got loads.
Don't get me wrong about this bloke. He's a nice guy, wouldn't do you over, and his construction stuff has been really good. He hasn't buggered off and wants to put this right. Obviously just out of his depth (Jesus, more than me, the DIY-er) on the floor. I do feel for him as he'll probably take a big hit. Best he doesn't touch a tile again and hits the books for UFH (or just reads the instructions maybe). Wish I had earlier as I'd never have allowed what's happened but I guess you shouldn't have to.
Doesn't seem much doubt that what I'd thought is what the trade thinks - although I'm still tempted to give the squirrels with their weights a go. Failing that, Doug's Ruby and Elvis are welcome to quote. My dog, Trevor, as you know, would be crap - just hasn't got the attention span and not a fan of the shiny tiles as he does Scooby Doo legs akimbo every time he legs it outside to chase the squirrels I so desperately need to advance floor tiling techniques to a new level.
So 24 hours on I've got the bit of background I felt I needed to try to move this forward. Very impressed with everyone's input - you guys are like tiling Samurai, defending wherever needed against tiling injustice. Great stuff, everyone, and hugely appreciated.
Don't really know the right salutation but may your grout always be the right consistency and your spacers true (sorry, too late to do better).
Seriously, really helpful day and you should all be proud that you've done quite a bit of restoring faith in tradesmen and people in general. Better not be anyone welling up or sniffing here - just not right.
Thanks so much again everyone
Regards
Matt
I'm Stuck - Wish My Tiles Were | TilersForums.com Filename: {userid}
 

tommyzooom

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Matt, I admire your patience. As has been said already, your builder has done a shockingly bad job, the worst I have seen. You also seem to know what needs to be done, a total rip-out ( at the builders expense). You have paid to have your floor tiled correctly, and that's what you should expect. His remedial works are getting more and more bizarre, and will never cure the huge problems that are clearly evident with your floor
 

Dan

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View attachment 73114 View attachment 73115 View attachment 73116 View attachment 73118 View attachment 73119 View attachment 73121

Dan
Keen as mustard - love it
Sorry not long in then was being a bit dim loading the pictures.
As promised some pics - so embarrassed, no-one's tidied up!
First is the dot and dab and UFH cable for everyone's entertainment. Next two are really just cardboard over where the tiles are up. Just shows the extent of the job really - it's a 5m x 5m square with a passageway of one end. 4th is what I'm worried about with end panels which probably have stone stuck to them 5th is the end of the island. Last is showing a tile space with all but the corner dots lifted off the cable and insulation. The genius idea is tile adhesive in the larger space between the corner dots, ridged a bit then Gripfill on the dots. Adjacent tiles not lifted to have foam injected under then as much adhesive pushed under the edge as possible. You probably gathered I'm not crazy about this idea.
Enough said really
Thanks
Matt
I haven't studied them or read your post properly but just in case you're about still I wanted to quickly ask for a picture or two under the plinths.
 

Andy Allen

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Im surprise your builder hasn't run a mile by now thats the normal reponse from them when things go belly up.
How do you think he's going to take your request to start again?
Does he admit he's dropped a massive boo boo or is he trying to blame other things to worm his way out..
 

widler

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That's some bad do do.
All depending on your budget, and wether your builder would pay for it , if it was me I'd try and keep the kitchen in, every bloke on here has tiled a floor a with kitchen in , it is doable and certainally not a bodge job as long as its prepped right.
not the best pics but this was tiled with the island and kitchen in, granite work tops ect, and these were 1200x600 :) I'm Stuck - Wish My Tiles Were | TilersForums.com Filename: {userid} I'm Stuck - Wish My Tiles Were | TilersForums.com Filename: {userid}
 

cam_low

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My use of that word was very loose wider...Maybe I should have chose a better term.

Clarity on tiling options in moving forward would be available after a site visit.

Im your job above... Did you have to remove an old floor... Any slc around the island?
 
OP
M

My dog's called Trevor

Matt, I admire your patience. As has been said already, your builder has done a shockingly bad job, the worst I have seen. You also seem to know what needs to be done, a total rip-out ( at the builders expense). You have paid to have your floor tiled correctly, and that's what you should expect. His remedial works are getting more and more bizarre, and will never cure the huge problems that are clearly evident with your floor

Thanks
Another vote for s redo
Matt
 
OP
M

My dog's called Trevor

That's some bad do do.
All depending on your budget, and wether your builder would pay for it , if it was me I'd try and keep the kitchen in, every bloke on here has tiled a floor a with kitchen in , it is doable and certainally not a bodge job as long as its prepped right.
not the best pics but this was tiled with the island and kitchen in, granite work tops ect, and these were 1200x600 :) View attachment 73128 View attachment 73129

I'm sure it's possible and less upheaval
Thanks
 
OP
M

My dog's called Trevor

Im surprise your builder hasn't run a mile by now thats the normal reponse from them when things go belly up.
How do you think he's going to take your request to start again?
Does he admit he's dropped a massive boo boo or is he trying to blame other things to worm his way out..

Andy
He's admitted its been a **** up - sort of had to when the tiles started knocking. Staying a bit quiet on bare UFH cable.
A request to get it all up with kitchen out if needed will go down badly but I think he'll start to realise he's not really in a position to have an opinion. His options will be to comply, get another opinion (and then comply), or walk away in which case he'll need chasing.
Hasn't got a leg to stand on if he disputes the request. The adhesive used doesn't stick to porcelain. The stuff he thought he used says on the bag (I'm stood next to it) that floor tiles must be laid on a solid bed. The UHF instructions say level with SLC then solid bed. Any how to do it DIY website or a leaflet from B+Q tells you what's wrong here.Then there's all the opinions posted here.
Who'd carry on arguing? Hope he won't.
Cheers
Matt
 

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