Need advice waterproof tile adhesive/grout and tanking

[Tonto]

I'm not a professional, just a housewife at the end of her tether. When living in Oz I found out it was building regs that to tile a wall, shower or splashback it had to have a waterproof membrane. It was explained that tiles do expand and contract to a certain degree and the damage from a small escape of water, as in my case because of a tiny hole in the grout, is enormous.

This is the second time I've had to rip out shower and replaster wall all because water came in, as there was a small gap in grout which I didn't spot and didn't realise the damage that it could do, well not until I spotted salty stuff seeping through my son's wall. My plumber/tiler tiled straight on to newly plastered wall without any waterproof membrane, didn't use waterproof or waterproof adhesive or grout. He didn't tell me that there were products that could help stop this sort of thing happening. Is it called "tanking?"

I phoned institute of plumbing a few years back and asked if there were statutory regs. to ensure any tiling on walls had some sort of waterproof membrane, quoting what I knew in Australia. Needless to say he thought I was barking.

On doing some research, thanks to you guys and other helpful forums, I understand that after plastering I should use BAL WP1 waterproofing kit or similar first and thanks to Youtube it shows how to do it - something I think I can do.

It's quite expensive but assume it's the best to use?

I told my tiler that this is what I'm going to do before he starts tiling (again I'm sorry to say he never mentioned a waterproof membrane until I told him).

My next query is that he tells me to get a waterproof all in one adhesive/tile grout. Is that the best option or should it be two separate things. Waterproof tile adhesive and a separate grout. Or is there a product that can do all in one?

Or is it better to use an Epoxy, which I understand can be difficult to use, unless you do small quantities at a time?

Can you recommend an easy to use Epoxy grout and is Johnsons easy clean expoxy grout a good one and if so, who stocks it.

Sorry to ramble on. Wish I had known, what I now know having done some research and what I found out in Oz because I would never have let the first two tilers tile my shower wall in the way they did.

Thank you for your help. Am I allowed to put in my email address in case someone wants to email me direct? It's [email protected]

 

[jimbob]

Can't really answer your questions as I don't know much about tanking, but what I will say is.......if the tiler didn't mention anything about tanking or waterproofing are you sure he is the right person to be doing the work for you??

Hope all goes well

 

[jay]

as above be wary good call jimbob/ hi and :welcome:your shower walls will prob need to be renewed id recomend using cement sheet defo use a tanking or membraine prior to tiling (make sure it is carried around tap fittings watertight ) depending on membraine choice as to what adh is used dont think you need epoxy adh and depending on budget maybe epoxy grout or spectralock recomend you post on here to see if theres a tiler in your area to give you a quote hope this helps :8:

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

tonto it's imperative that you use a tanking membrane like you said under the tiles, mapei are very good adhesive makers and adesilex p-10 isideal for your job www.mapei.co.uk grout should be a seperate if you want epoxy mapei again,have you thought of getting a professional tiler that knows the job in ?? mapei will advise you as well,they are MEN IN BLACK HA HA:lol: GOOD LUCK and :welcome: to the forum

 

[Deleted member 9966]

hi Tonto

Are you still in Oz or now located in the UK? Tanking isn't something that forms part of building regs in the UK, but having two big damp patches in my lounge and hallway from the shower room and bathroom upstairs, I'm a big advocate of tanking.

No grout or tile adhesive is 100% waterproof unless you get into the realms of Epoxy. Tanking is the next best alternative.

If the tiler you're appointing to do the work won't even consider tanking, maybe he's not the right guy for the job.

I know a few tilers who still feel that tanking is a waste of money and so long as the adhesive and grout are done right you shouldn't have any problems. I beg to differ and don't wish to kick the dog for peeing on the carpet again, when actually it was water seeping through the ceiling :mad2:

Hope this helps
GRR

 

[Stan001]

Tonto
I totally appreciate your frustration. <rant mode on :mad2:>
I came from an engineering background into building and tiling.
The build industry and tiling standards enforcement in the UK are a joke (being NHBC registered I can tell you I’ve employed many trades who have never read either the building regs nor the associated BS and EN regs).
Tiling British Standards (only being a ‘recommended’ practice) are a total joke. Especially when you compare to standards that are ‘enforced’ in other countries.
The subject of whether to tank or use a certain spec sealant, adhesive or grout in certain applications should be enforced not recommended. I’m positive your frustrations are shared by the big adhesive OEM’s, pro-tilers and the better builders, even by the wetroom suppliers and other third party suppliers. It is indeed just an open door for cowboys in the UK.
Electrical installations and now plumbing are now being enforced, do we have to wait until lack of tanking and shoddy tiling work not just leaks but leaks on a ring main and causes fire or death. At minimum it causes tens of thousands of pounds worth of household damage – for what – for the lack of a £50 tanking kit!
I am equally mad at the British Standards authorities – not only should tanking installation be clearly specified and enforced per specific situation but then the authorities want to charge hundreds of pounds (and more) for us to obtain them! … these are regs that they would like us to obey but don’t make it practically economic for us to practically obey – its unbelievable. All of us tilers should be able to get a legal free copy of BS5385 sent to our desk for the cost of a phone call, it should be government sponsored not government charged! Whereas the building regs can not only be purchased in paper at reasonable cost but also downloaded free off the internet by anyone. <rant mode off>
For now –
get rid of your tiler, employ a tiler off this forum (they are not fly by nights and know what they are doing), you could have a go at the tanking yourself once you get yourself a good wall back (ask a builder or tiler to put in backerboard if your plasterboard is now mush – for the extra cost its worth it) –a tanking kit, for a single shower should cost you £50 to £100 (and should have all the bits in there) – you sound practical, you’ll probably even enjoy putting it in if you don’t want your tiler to do it.
Good luck.
Stan

 

[Tonto]

Thanks for your advice. I will "tank" but can you tell me should I use a combined waterproof grout and adhesive, in which case any recommendations. I understand water resistant is not the same as waterproof! Or should I use separate waterproof adhesive and grout? And if so, can you tell me the best products to use. Or should I go down the Epoxy grout (assuming my tiler knows how to use it?) and has anyone used the Johnsons easy clean epoxy grout or something similar that I can buy over the counter. Thanks.

I can't understand how some people think waterproofing or using waterproof membrane isn't important on a shower wall or any wall that's exposed to water. If what they told me in Oz when I was living there is correct tiles do expand and contract (even if you don't notice it) and if you have the slightest leak, as in my case a tiny hole in the grout, or say a leak from the actual shower fitting, doesn't it make sense to do as much as you can to alleviate the possibility of water seeping through to a party wall?

How many kitchens/bathrooms have you seen - like mine, that the tiles on the splashbacks are shot - all because I wasn't advised that something could be done, even if it meant costing a little extra?

Thank you all for your advice.

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

there is no combined addy/ grout thats any good, now go to mapei as i said ,the web sites on my last post!!!!

 

[beanz]

If you're tanking anyway, i'm not sure i see the benefit of using "waterproof" addy and grout!?! As long as you use cement based products, they won't degrade, and your tanking will stop the water going any further.
I haven't used a membrane yet, so can't comment on the amount of material you get in a kit, but the rubber paint type of tanking kit i bought for about £45, only gives you enough tape etc to tank the bottom metre..

 

[CON5933]

:welcome:i'm thinking your 'tiler' wants to turn up with some all in one tile and grout adhesive in atub....you won't find many people on here using this type of product....
I would strongly suggest you get another opinion from another tiler before you commit..
I'm sure there will be a tiler on this forum close enough to your location..
As far as tanking is concerned, i always advise it, even with cement boards

As far which adhesive & grout, as Gooner said, have a look at the Mapei website..

 

[Stan001]

warning - long and boring email alert :smilewinkgrin:
hi Tonto
The easier thing for you to do it go into one of the tile specialist / shops, Tile Giant is a good example, Topps is another. Avoid the sheds (Wickes, B&Q etc.) they sell combined DIY type materials and cant give you any decent technical advice.
In short answer to your question – I would say no! combined addy grouts are not a good idea.
These are the layers you are going to do starting from your wall. (forgive me I’ll speak in DIY terms rather than try and confuse matters)
Backerboard or plasterboard
Then:
Primer (this is a brush on liquid that prepares the surface for the next layer)
Then:
Tanking (this will all be in your kit, it will consist of a rubber type coating, some tape for the edges / corner, some manufacturers have a sheet that you have to stick on using your adhesive – the full instructions will be in your tanking kit .. open it up in the shop and ask the shop manager to walk you through putting it up)
Then:
Your adhesive (you are going to be using a flexible water resistant adhesive, to make things easy for you in this case I would actually recommend a tubbed adhesive for DIY, normally I wouldn’t, the one I would use is from a company called BAL and the adhesive is called White Star) … the adhesive is called ‘water resistant because when water gets on it doesn’t turn back into the mush like how you scooped it straight out of the bucket it comes in. It doesn’t mean it makes the layer below waterproof, your only true waterproof layer in this project is the tanking! (I do wish the manufacturer would explain themselves on the tubs and bags when they say ‘waterproof’ and ‘water resistant’). If you use the White Star from a tub then all your adhesive lines need to go in one direction i.e. all horizontal or all vertical, if you use a powder adhesive this is not so important.
Then:
obviously this is your layer of tiles
Then:
Your grout (this again will be a flexible grout and this time you need to buy it in a bag of powder and mix it in small quantities to apply it – it goes off quite fast), I’d recommend BAL microflex as it is anti mould so good for showers. You also need to let the shop know the gap you’d like between your tiles, they have different grouts for narrow and wide gap. Fyi a 2mm gap is pretty normal for normal sized tiles on a shower wall.

I am used to using a company called BAL , the Mapei, Ardex, Webber and Nicobond adhesives and powders are all just as good and no doubt forum tilers here or your shop will provide you the equivalents (tilers tend to prefer one brand and get a bit fanatical about it, for you I guess just use whatever your local tile shop recommends).
Some extra boring stuff:-
You need to wait the correct amount of time after installing the tanking to allow it to cure / dry out. Read the instructions in your kit.
You need to wait the amount of time it says on the bag before grouting to allow the adhesive time to dry out.
If you are using tiles above 300mm square then I would not use the White Star I said above but use a power adhesive (ask the shop to recommend one to you , a flexible adhesive for showers)
Then on top of all that I would seal the grout after about a week, this further keep the water out – not to waterproof but to stop soap etc filling the pores in the grout and it all looking a bit grey after a year.
You should also use a trowel with semi-circle cut outs on it (your tile shop will show you which one) unlike the normal trowel with little square notches that everyone has (and the DIY shops would sell you) the one with half circles will make sure you have a full coverage of adhesive behind your tiles (the notch ones are about 80%) in a shower you need this full coverage (the sticker on the trowel may say ‘solid bed’ … again ask the shop to advise which one)

To your final questions – you don’t need to use epoxy grout if you use tanking. Its real horrible stuff anyway – not for DIY use really. It is 100% water / wine proof etc but you only really need it for things like industrial kitchen / food prep etc. For a home shower you could use it but not really needed. (its very expensive, not so easy to use as its heavy and stiff, and any residue you don’t clean will stay stuck on your tiles forever!)

This will cost you only a little bit extra compared to the combined materials you buy in the DIY shops, but the advice the tiles shops give you (I’ve given a very simple DIY explanation here just so as you know enough to ask questions in the shop) is what you are after, plus if you tell them your shower dimensions they will work out exactly how much of each thing to sell you.

Sorry about the micky mouse explanation, I just wanted to give you enough info so you can go and speak to the experts at Tile Giant etc.

Hope that helps. (I have no problem with corrected by any of the experts here, my explanation is an overview to get you into a tile shop)

Use the bath for a few days, take your time and have fun – if it all looks too scary, approach local tilers on here for help or do the job.

Stan

p.s. you are right that even a small hole is bad news, small holes actually suck the water under the tile (its called capillary action). If you don’t have a solid bed and tanking this is why you eventually get failure and your tiles fall of or you get leaks behind.

 

[Dan]

Can't really top the advice there. It wouldn't have been the small hole in your grout that lead to the damage, grout in its self isn't waterproof, it's water resistant, so water can pass through it and not damage it. So you'd have had issues just because the tiles are getting wet - once they're wet long enough the water eventually gets behind them via the grout and then will damage whatever's behind them that isn't water resistant or proof.

Use a good tanking kit, I'd recommend the Mapei one, though they're all pretty good and very similar to be honest (don't assume because it's expensive it's the best).

Good luck.

 

[White Room]

If you're tanking anyway, i'm not sure i see the benefit of using "waterproof" addy and grout!?! As long as you use cement based products, they won't degrade, and your tanking will stop the water going any further.
I haven't used a membrane yet, so can't comment on the amount of material you get in a kit, but the rubber paint type of tanking kit i bought for about £45, only gives you enough tape etc to tank the bottom metre..

Go to your local halfords and look for there fine fibre glass, it's a m2 and only costs £3.50 then cut into strips, looks the same to me as bal tape

 

[beanz]

Go to your local halfords and look for there fine fibre glass, it's a m2 and only costs £3.50 then cut into strips, looks the same to me as bal tape

Thanks Whitebeam, that's a great tip, and might well come in handy! 😀

I don't suppose you know how long the rubber paint lasts, once opened? I have plenty left, but no tape, so might get more use out of it!! 😀

 

[White Room]

At least 6 months and more, with the cold weather kicking in keep in a warm,ish area though

 

[beanz]

At least 6 months and more, with the cold weather kicking in keep in a warm,ish area though

Cheers for the tips, i'd better get it outa the garage lol!

 

[Tonto]

Dear Stan and everyone,

Thank you again for your advice. You of course realise why I called myself "Tonto" - cowboys best friend - well I used to be. Because I do all the DIY and house maintenance (the bits I can reach being so small) I have been ripped off, or should I say, not advised properly before. So thanks to you guys and the internet, at least I can do my research beforehand, so next time someone comes in and sees I'm on my own and tries it on, I can now be prepared!

Right, think I've got it now - will go to Toptiles, Slough, phoning before hand to see if they stock the full range of products unless anyone can recommend somewhere else in the Windsor/Slough area.

All I need now is a plasterer. I found a good one in the Slough area and even though plastering two small showers is a piddly job for him, being so busy - lucky thing, he is prepared to come out. I sort of offered to chase out the old plaster - well half way up the damp wall which should come off just by breathing on it, but a bit scared of doing it futher up where the plaster isn't wet, just in case I knock the rest of the bathroom walls out! But it will save him time if I can do as much as I can before he comes.

He helped me out once before when I started knocking out bricks in an old fireplace to fit a range cooker in and thought that the whole chimney and house was going to fall down, just because I needed extra inches to get the range in the gap! Anyway can thoroughly recommend him.

Again, many thanks. Very kind of you all to explain things to me and when it's all done, shower is up and working, I'll let you know.

 

[beanz]

Why don't you just get a tiler to do the whole job? You shouldn't really need a plasterer, as you'll just end up having to wait for the plaster to dry, so you're losing more time. Is the damp plaster on a brick/block wall, or is it plasterboard? Either way, i'd be tempted to just remove and replace with Aquapanel, or equivalent.

I'm sure Dave would be able to recommend a decent tiler in the area. If i was a little more experienced, i'd give you a quote, as you're quite local, but this is a bit too much for me to take on at the moment unfortunately.. 😉

 

[Tonto]

Tonto rides again - you must all be fed up with me by now.

Appreciate your comments about tiler doing plastering - my tiler/chippie/handyman admits he doesn't plaster - at least he's honest about it. And from my very limited knowledge, plastering is an art form - it's just got to be, especially as I've had two disasters from so-called full time "accredited" plasterers/tilers before and I'd rather use the guy who did a brilliant job for me recently and I trust. In any event, I have to wait for plaster to dry, then tank it, and then when I've saved up, can get my tiler/plumber to come in and tile and fit shower. I know it's a long way round, and I'm sure there are good tilers/plasterers out there, but the thought of getting more guys in giving me estimates and run the risk of them saying they'll turn up and then don't (yes that's happened before), rather stick to the plasterer I know and trust.

Incidentally, does anyone know approximately a daily rate that plasterers charge - or is that a daft question? :lol:

Another daft question - I'm going to buy the materials myself and he said I must get the best quality sealant thinggy (the stuff you put in a gun) to run round edges of tray and stuff - can you recommend the best white bathroom/shower sealant. Definitely won't get it from that place beginning with W and ending in S.😛rrr:

 

[mags]

Tonto rides again - you must all be fed up with me by now.

Appreciate your comments about tiler doing plastering - my tiler/chippie/handyman admits he doesn't plaster - at least he's honest about it. And from my very limited knowledge, plastering is an art form - it's just got to be, especially as I've had two disasters from so-called full time "accredited" plasterers/tilers before and I'd rather use the guy who did a brilliant job for me recently and I trust. In any event, I have to wait for plaster to dry, then tank it, and then when I've saved up, can get my tiler/plumber to come in and tile and fit shower. I know it's a long way round, and I'm sure there are good tilers/plasterers out there, but the thought of getting more guys in giving me estimates and run the risk of them saying they'll turn up and then don't (yes that's happened before), rather stick to the plasterer I know and trust.

Incidentally, does anyone know approximately a daily rate that plasterers charge - or is that a daft question? :lol:

Another daft question - I'm going to buy the materials myself and he said I must get the best quality sealant thinggy (the stuff you put in a gun) to run round edges of tray and stuff - can you recommend the best white bathroom/shower sealant. Definitely won't get it from that place beginning with W and ending in S.😛rrr:

If it just boarding out then anyone can turn teir hand to it , but skimming is a difficult job.

Good plasterers up here you can get for as little at £70 a day.

Silicon sealer use good brands like Mapei as they have less filers and are less likely to crack.

 

[beanz]

My point is that you don't need to plaster. No point plastering a wall just to put tiles over the top of it hehe! Quicker (and probably flatter) to just put boards up.

As for pricing, a decent plasterer around your neck of the woods will usually want a minimum of £150 a day (even in these hard times), one of my mates charges £200 a day (and is still getting that now). If you let him get his own materials, it'll usually cost you less, as he'll probably get a decent discount. Plus with Silicon, he'll be better off using what he's used to, as they can vary a bit. That store you mention has particularly nasty Silicon that i won't EVER use again lol!

I'm curious as to why you're using your "trusted" plumber/tiler, when you clearly don't trust his judgement on what materials to use!?!

 

[Tonto]

In reply to "Beanz" - sent a reply yesterday to another forum by mistake. Dohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

You say why plaster and not just plasterboard. Firstly the plasterboard would have to be very thin as after tiling the shower wall will have to be flush with the rest of the bathroom.

The two sections of shower wall, where I've taken half the wet plaster off, is brick. One of the walls is an outside wall the mortar is gone, there are holes every where and I can actually see daylight and a view to the garden. There is also white salty bits and bobbles on the brickwork on the outside, exactly where water has got through from the shower wall. The other wall has my son's room the other side - again where moisture has seeped through the holes in the grout.

I know I appear to be completely dense, but if you have a brick wall, what is the point of covering it with plasterboard and not rectifying the brickwork behind it? So putting plasterboard on the shower walls would be quicker, cheaper but just cosmetic but it would still leave me with holes and gaps in the bricks behind the plasterboard wouldn't it?

Say I moved into an old house and there was a kitchen with no fittings and the brick walls had holes everywhere, and you could see day light through some of the gaps - you wouldn't just plasterboard the whole kitchen without repointing or replacing some of the bricks and plastering the wall to get a good flat finish before you fitted out the kitchen would you?

I could sort of understand if a house was a new build with stud walls, but normally I presume bathrooms or part of the walls of a bathroom will be on the interior of an outside wall where the plumbing and drainage pipes go down the side of the house into a drain?

Or am I talking rubbish? Again, appreciate your comments.

 

[jay]

hi tonto yes you are right deffo fix your brick wall then plaster as for Silicon just make sure its compatable with your warerproofing or membrane hope this helps :8:

 

[Deleted member 9966]

Tonto

With every post you write, i get more concerned about the amount of work that needs doing.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are now saying you have removed the old damp plaster from the wall that it an outside/brick wall, and since doing so, you can see that the brickwork and pointing has deteriorated to the point where you can see through it into the garden?

You are correct that you need to rectify the brickwork both externally and internally before replastering. I think Beanz and the rest of us did not realise that the brick wall involved had deteriorated in such a manner. Your brick wall sounds like it is soaked through.

I would wholeheartedly recommend speaking to your house insurance provider. It may not be as simple as re-patching the pointing where water has soaked through the bricks. You need to consider how much damage the water has done to the brick wall and where else it may have seeped to. For the sake of paying your excess, it may be cheaper than paying a brickie yourself to come in and repair the damage.

You need to get your brick wall sorted before you can even consider re-boarding, tanking and tiling.

In my bathroom (modern, new build property), my walls are red brick, cavity, breeze block, and then plasterboard attached to the breeze block. I am guessing that your house is quite old and that the brick walls are merely 1 brick's thickness to the outside.

Liz

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

firstly it sounds to me like penertrating damp, if there is no reason outside the damp patch ie, down pipes leaking, leaking gutter above,or bridged damp course, its were the pointing is weak/failing and obviousely leaking, why dont you get a dampproofing company out to have a look and give you a free estimate and then you will know wots wrong

 

[Nardini]

You MUST get that wall sorted out first - before you start thinking of any interior work. As already said, the job sounds as though it is getting to the point where the easiest and cheapest solution for you in the longer term would be to rebuild the wall, cutting out all of the damaged, wet and salt laden bricks - to say nothing of the damaged mortar. Only after you have a sound wall that can keep the rain out and the damp down would it be wise to think about your tiling project.

 

[beanz]

Tonto, like everyone else, i wasn't aware of the extent of your problem. No point even worrying about the shower yet, need to get the brickwork sorted first.

 

[Dan]

Just bumping some of the older popular (sometimes not so popular) threads. Probably wont be current discussion these days but I just need to do it. So just ignore the thread if it's not current for you.