Porcelain Porcelain Tiles Unbonded

[Asc]

I have underfloor heating and a concrete floor. I cleaned the floor then PVAd it. I followed instructions on the bag of adhesive (cement based, highly polymer, modified, thin bed tile adhesive) The underfloor heating was turned off in advance. It was tiled using the trowel which was advised on the instructions from the adhesive bag (6mm square notched trowel). After around 10 days we heard some cracks and bangs but did not realise what this was. We turned the underfloor heating on, at the lowest setting after two weeks and we continued to hear cracks and bangs - we discovered that this was the tiles letting go. We have had to lift the whole floor, the tiles have come up with no effort at all. There is no adhesive stuck to the tiles (38m2 of 600 x 600 porcelain tiles) but it is stuck well to the floor. We have spent days taking the adhesive up with a hammer drill. On inspecting the granite tiles in the bathroom today they have also done the same and we are also going to have to take all these up and remove the adhesive from the floor.

Does anyone know what the problem could be?

The tiles appear to be quite powdery on the back - could it be this?

Or is it a problem with the adhesive?

Or something else we've done?

We have recently laid tiles ceramic tiles upstairs using different adhesive and have had no problems at all. (Although there is no UF heating there)

Would it help to clean then PVA the backs of the tiles before trying to lay them again?

Thanks for any help anyone can offer.

 

[J Sid]

PVA..... Really? That was the instructions on the adhesive bag was it ?

 

[White Room]

Don't use pva it has no place in tiling as there better products out there....what was the make of adhesive you used.

 

[J Sid]

What adhesive was this?

 

[Asc]

It was Kwik flex adhesive
Kwik Flex Grey Floor Tile Adhesive Toolshed Tile Adhesive Adhesives & Grouts 20 Kg from Walls and Floors. Kwik Flex Grey Tile Adhesive | Walls and Floors - Sold Per Unit

The pva was on the floor and the adhesive stuck well to this, on initial checks it appeared to stick to the tiles but 98% on the tiles had no adhesive stuck to them at all after the two weeks.

What should I be using instead of Pac?

Thanks

 

[Asc]

*pva

 

[Chalker]

To be fair to the op, even using the dreaded pva. The problem had been detachment from the tiles!
We need to know what make of adhesive, fast or standard set, how was it mixed, what are the tiles, were they back buttered, was the screed tested for moisture, what type of screed is it?
And could you post some pictures.
Thanks

 

[Bill]

PVA would not cause any harm to the adhesive - it may stop the adhesive debonding. Are you sure it was PVA and not another primer supplied by the tile shop?

Adhesive not sticking to the tiles is caused by the wrong adhesive being used for the type of tile.

 

[Andy Allen]

Should of used an acrylic primer.

Was the ufh commissioned before tiling
How long after tiling did you turn the ufh on .....and how did you turn the ufh on for the first time....did you just crank it up ?

 

[Chalker]

Adhesive is not the best , but should be up to the job.

 

[Andy Allen]

Could be the heating turned on to soon and to high.

 

[Asc]

The tiles were not back buttered - should they have been?

It's a solid concrete floor which has been in for four years - the underfloor heating went in at this time and was turned on Dec 2015, it was only turned off to tile.

We turned it on at the lowest setting after two weeks.

The tiles are porcelain.

They are very powdery on the back - could it be this?

What adhesive would you recommend?

 

[Asc]

Polished Ivory Floor Tiles Tiles Lounge Porcelain Tiles 600x600x9.5mm from Walls and Floors. Polished Ivory Tiles | Walls and Floors - Sold Per Sqm

Premium Star Galaxy Black Tiles Tiles Imperial Granite (Star Galaxy) Natural Granite Tiles 305x305x10mm from Walls and Floors. Premium Star Galaxy Black Tiles | Walls and Floors - Sold Per Sqm

These are the tiles we've used

 

[Asc]

Could be the heating turned on to soon and to high.

How long should we have left it? It was on the lowest setting on the manifold but were going to speak to plumber and sparky to see if we can set it lower

 

[Bill]

I think you need to get your tiler back and start negotiations with the shop from where you bought the products.

It is too difficult to assess online.

 

[Bill]

Those galaxy tiles may not be true granite and some 'fake' granites are not suitable for UFH. There could be numerous reasons why this has failed.

 

[Just Rizzle]

wrong addy imop as the addy used has stuck to the P VA d floor and not the tiles. porcelain needs a certain type of addy also back buttering is a must when tiling porcelain tiles. you haven't got a leg to stand on as most manufacturers recommend back buttering

 

[Bill]

wrong addy imop as the addy used has stuck to the P VA d floor and not the tiles. porcelain needs a certain type of addy also back buttering is a must when tiling porcelain tiles. you haven't got a leg to stand on as most manufacturers recommend back buttering

The bag does say porcelain though Ray.

 

[p4ulo]

were they powdery before they were stuck down? Sounds like the adhesive has not stuck to the back of the tiles for some reason....6mm on a floor is a bit thin too, are they bowed at all, therefore sticking at the ends but not in the middle?

 

[Just Rizzle]

think I tried a bag some years ago .thought it was very sandy. but didn't use it with ufh.
did you read the instructions on how to mix and apply

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

The tiles were not back buttered - should they have been?

It's a solid concrete floor which has been in for four years - the underfloor heating went in at this time and was turned on Dec 2015, it was only turned off to tile.

We turned it on at the lowest setting after two weeks.

The tiles are porcelain.

They are very powdery on the back - could it be this?

What adhesive would you recommend?

 

[Qwerty]

That's a rapid set cement. As well as no back buttering, possible dust on backs of tiles and PVA used as a primer, my guess is that you have probably mixed the adhesive too stiff but maybe also left it too long between trowelling the adhesive and laying the tiles. Most rapids only have a pot life of around 30 minutes and an open time of around 15-20 minutes

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

I think tiling directly onto 6mm ribs of adhesive with with 600x 600mm tiles is asking for trouble.......I would be working with a 12mm adhesive trowel on the floor and on the the back of the tile off the high spot in the floor then working with an edge off that......you need 100% adhesive coverage on your tiles, I your fixing method and and possibly the wrong adhesive have caused you the installation failure here......how did you manage to fix large format tiles onto a 6mm bed of adhesive ??....surely there was a few lips showing

 

[Lee@emctiles]

Im guessing that these tiles have been purchased online? Now i dont see anything wrong with that (as we too sell online) but seems that the wrong tile fixing products have been purchased.

youve mentioned the UFH and its been commissioned, sorry if ive missed it but what type of screen is it?

 

[Tile Shop]

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*To clarify....this is not the post deleted by moderating staff, but by the poster themselves*

 

[One Day]

dusty backsides? Thermal shock? Very cold tiles can affect the bond?

 

[Old Mod]

The above post has been deleted.

This is not appropriate @Paul C.

Do not use the forum as a mouthpiece for the organisation that employs you.

tilersforums.com has no affiliation with Walls And Floors whatsoever!

 

[Chalker]

The above post has been deleted.

This is not appropriate @Paul C.

Do not use the forum as a mouthpiece for the organisation that employs you.

tilersforums.com has no affiliation with Walls And Floors whatsoever!

Nobody has said anything against the supplier. I've had quite a bit from this supplier, with no problems. I think the problem is with wrong fixing and thermal shock!
If I buy a boiler or a bathroom from a merchant, they don't tell me how to fit it.
That's what professional tradesmen are for

 

[Bill]

Nobody has said anything against the supplier. I've had quite a bit from this supplier, with no problems. I think the problem is with wrong fixing and thermal shock!
If I buy a boiler or a bathroom from a merchant, they don't tell me how to fit it.
That's what professional tradesmen are for

We don't know if a pro was used yet - but anyway, even if they did it themselves, I would still expect a certain amount of help from the shop.

 

[Old Mod]

Nobody has said anything against the supplier. I've had quite a bit from this supplier, with no problems. I think the problem is with wrong fixing and thermal shock!
If I buy a boiler or a bathroom from a merchant, they don't tell me how to fit it.
That's what professional tradesmen are for

Not saying anything has been said against the supplier Chalker.
If you did not see what was posted, then please do not make assumptions, that's how things get misinterpreted.
The post was not malicious in any way.

 

[Old Mod]

Ok so let's put records straight!

@Paul C. Has not made any comments that could be deemed as malicious toward anyone.
In all honesty, I'd imagine it was made because of a lack of concentration on his part and not the company that employs him.
And said WITHOUT prejudice, of this I am certain.
There was nothing underhand, this just was not the platform for his response.
Noting more, nothing less!
It was done publicly because the post had been up a while and we have no way of knowing who had already read it.