Discuss Electric Underfloor Screed & Tile Expansion Joints? in the UK Tiling Forum area at TilersForums.com.

dingers

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Hi, I am presently having a house built with Electric underfloor heating. The floor screed has been pumped/poured and seems to be calcium sulphate type. I have read varying reports as to the requirements for movement/expansion joints in the screed and tiles. The largest area in the house is 36m2 and there is going to be movements joints in the tles here and across all doorways and were separately controlled heating mats exist. However, the screed has been carried out without any such joints but I have read there is very little movement with calcium sulphate.
Are movement joints required in the screed ? How does this affect the tiles and those movement joints.
Is there rule of thumb scale answer. Any advice or guidance or expirence appreciated.
Thank you.
dingers
 

Ajax123

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Hi, I am presently having a house built with Electric underfloor heating. The floor screed has been pumped/poured and seems to be calcium sulphate type. I have read varying reports as to the requirements for movement/expansion joints in the screed and tiles. The largest area in the house is 36m2 and there is going to be movements joints in the tles here and across all doorways and were separately controlled heating mats exist. However, the screed has been carried out without any such joints but I have read there is very little movement with calcium sulphate.
Are movement joints required in the screed ? How does this affect the tiles and those movement joints.
Is there rule of thumb scale answer. Any advice or guidance or expirence appreciated.
Thank you.
dingers

All heated screeds require movement control joints. Calcium sulphate screeds are no exception althought hey are very forgiving when joints are not placed due to the dimensional stability of the material. BS8204 part 7 is the over riding standard covering pumpable self smoothing screeds which includes those based on calcium sulphate. Generally the maximum bay size will be 300m2 but this will need to be jointed in accordance with the rules. outlined in the standard.

Section 6.1 which is the relevent section is quoted below

All joints in the screed should be reflected through the tiled surface. The paragraph at the end of the first section is appropriate.

6.10.1 Bay sizes, position of joints
Pumpable self-smoothing screeds are generally laid in large areas, often without the need for joints.
However, where there are structural movement joints or expansion joints in the base slab, it is essential
that these should be continued through the screed to the surface of the finished flooring, directly over the
joint in the base.
Where construction joints in the base slab have opened, or could open, they could reflect through an
overlying bonded screed. Similarly, at positions of rigid supports in base constructions which are subject to
deflection (e.g. supports to precast planks) there will be a risk of reflective cracking through an overlying
screed. In both cases, if the floor finish is to be bonded and rigid, or if the screed is to be a wearing screed,
a joint capable of accommodating the expected movement should be formed through the screed and (where
relevant) the floor finish.
For unbonded or floating screed constructions, large area pours (for example with an unbroken length
exceeding about 40m) might need stress relief joints at intervals. The proprietary screed manufacturer’s
advice should be sought. Long thin strips of screed are more liable to stress cracking, and areas such as
long corridors can benefit from joints at intervals to control such cracking.
Heated screeds should include joints across doorways and between areas with separate heating control
zones. If the underfloor heating manufacturer recommends additional joints, their advice should be
followed.
6.10.2 Construction of joints
Where a day joint is formed to divide up an area of work, but is not required to accommodate movement,
the joint should be formed to provide neat vertical edges to the poured areas of screed.
Where a stress relief joint is required, the joint should be formed to provide neat vertical edges to the
screed. Alternatively, joints may be saw cut into the completed and hardened screed, which procedure
should be carried out within a few days of application of the screed before any random cracking develops
elsewhere.
NOTE Structural movement and structural expansion joints are usually formed by incorporating a proprietary metal extrusion
movement joint within the zone of the screed and floor finishes.
6.10.3 Edge separation joints
Unbonded and floating screeds should be separated from all walls, columns and other upstands by a strip
of compressible foam material. The minimum thickness of foam should be 5mm, with thicker foam
recommended in large area pours, typically in areas exceeding about 40m in length, when the advice of the
proprietary manufacturer should be sought.
 

dingers

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Hi Thanks again A quick scan would show that my areas, maximum 6m x 6m, is ok with out joints in screed. Would you agree those quoted look quite large for domestic installations. dingers
 

Ajax123

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Hi Thanks again A quick scan would show that my areas, maximum 6m x 6m, is ok with out joints in screed. Would you agree those quoted look quite large for domestic installations. dingers

Hi dingers - yes 6mx6m is no problem - joints across door thresholds is important also if you have unheated areas they need separating from heated areas and finally (I think) if you have areas where high levels of thermal gain exist e.g. conservatory they should be separated also.
Mostr screeders will say that you don't need joints in calcium sulphate screed. Often you will get away with it from the screeds point of view but I would not want to take the risk personally
 

dingers

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Hi, There are no joints anyway in screed at present.....so I feel a little concerned plus today I did make a few comments on site as to enquire what was happening. Varying opinons. Perhaps,I may have more info tomorrow. I get the impression joints can be cut in after screed has set, do they have to go full depth and lay under those of the tiles? dingers
 

Ajax123

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Hi, There are no joints anyway in screed at present.....so I feel a little concerned plus today I did make a few comments on site as to enquire what was happening. Varying opinons. Perhaps,I may have more info tomorrow. I get the impression joints can be cut in after screed has set, do they have to go full depth and lay under those of the tiles? dingers

No reason to panic - it can be fixed. The joints can be cut post installation and need to extend to approx 1/3 the depth of the screed so if it is a 40mm screed it needs to be about 15mm. This can be done with a simple disc cutter but you need to set it with a depth gauge to prevent cutting too deep because of the risk to the under floor cables. The joint pattern in the tiles needs to reflect the joints in the screed. If you bridge a movement joint with a rigid finish and the screed moves at a different rate one side of the joint to the other it can put a mechanical pressure on the interface between the tile and the screed. This will either pop the tile off or crack it....the latter being most likely.

I am curious to know why you are getting varying opinions. Is that avout the need for joints cos the rules are pretty clear. Do you know which material supplier they used?
 

dingers

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Hi, AJAX123,

Sorry never got back to last night, had to close down, had thunderstorm, lightning everthing.

Again ,Thank s for the good sound advice. The system is called "Appli Fluide" by Technisol and is French. Looking on the internet its the same product or nearly the same as LARFARGE.
DSC02020.JPG
You can appreciate my French being what it is, its difficult communicating and fully understanding what the Artisans are doing. I am installing the tiles so the advice given helps a lot. Thought I might upload couple of pics but dont know how.

With the movement joints in the screed, what are they generally filled with, and any ideas on the supplier for the movement joints for the tiles?

dingers
 

dingers

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Apologies for the squiggly bit in the previous, that was my attempt to upload pics........it didn't show on the writeup.
dingers
 
R

Rob Z

Hi Dingers and Ajax,

The figures quoted by our TCNA (Tile Council of North America) are a bit more conservative than what have been posted here, and as far as I know they don't make any distinction about the type of substrate and the required joint spacing. They also want to see those joints go all the way down through the layer on top, whether it be a mud bed, gypsum screed, etc. Schluter Dilex is a good product to use for this although after the fact it isn't an option.

I think one of the best rules of thumb to follow are the guidelines given by Schluter: place soft joints in all doorways (ie: divide up all rooms as separate fields of tile), have a clean perimeter joint all around the room (filled either with sealant or nothing at all-no grout or setting material, and cover with base trim), and ensure that all fields of tile are in either squares (not always possible) or rectangles that have a ratio of the sides not to exceed 1:1.5.

Dingers, did they install foam around the perimeters of all the walls so the pour will be separated from the house?
 

dingers

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Hi,

They installed what I would call a relatively thin (4mm) blue soft like sponge material, which I assumed is an insulatation barrier or spacer albeit small.

dingers
 

Ajax123

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Hi Dingers and Ajax,

The figures quoted by our TCNA (Tile Council of North America) are a bit more conservative than what have been posted here, and as far as I know they don't make any distinction about the type of substrate and the required joint spacing. They also want to see those joints go all the way down through the layer on top, whether it be a mud bed, gypsum screed, etc. Schluter Dilex is a good product to use for this although after the fact it isn't an option.

I think the advice of the TCNA will reflect that of the UKTA which says that the screed should be split into bays of 40m2 using a full thickness isolation joint. It also caveats this advice by suggesting that advice should also be sought from the screed manufacturer. I agree that the use of full depth joints at door thresholds, separate hating zone interfaces and at areas where high levels of thermal gain are best practice. However as you rightly say that advice is no use now cos the screed is in place. Whilst very good products Schluter is by no means the only way.
The idea is to give the screed some movement accomodation and short of taking it all out and starting again the best way to do this in this instance is to saw cut the joints in post installation.
Fortunately calcium sulphate screeds are very forgiving in terms of dimensional stability so the effect of leaving the joints out is not a complete disaster. However where there are restraint points e.g. through doorways there is some risk of the screed cracking.

I think one of the best rules of thumb to follow are the guidelines given by Schluter: place soft joints in all doorways (ie: divide up all rooms as separate fields of tile), have a clean perimeter joint all around the room (filled either with sealant or nothing at all-no grout or setting material, and cover with base trim), and ensure that all fields of tile are in either squares (not always possible) or rectangles that have a ratio of the sides not to exceed 1:1.5.

Query - Does the material manufacturers advice not count for anything then? :prrr:

Dingers, did they install foam around the perimeters of all the walls so the pour will be separated from the house?

Do the TCNA have any published documentation about substrate design. I guess there is a standard governing the design and installation - in the uk BS 8204 part 7
 
R

Rob Z

Ajax,

The TCNA handbook is copyrighted, and I think I probably can't post details on here from the disc that I have (of the current handbook). Yes, they always take the "CYA" approach and say, regardless of their recommendations, to follow whatever the manufacturer has to say in their literature. If I have a product to install that has less-stringent installation standards than the genaric guidelines in the TCNA handbook, I follow the more-stringent standards of the TCNA.

For exterior installations, for installations in direct sunlight, and for heated installations, the TCNA handbook recommends soft joints as close as 8' to 12' on center.

The Schluter "1:1.5" ratio is a good one, I think, and isn't unique to that company. I see evidence of that principle on a lot of new jobs going in around here, for concrete and brickwork especially.

Yes, the TCNA has info about substrate design. I could count all the details in the current handbook, but my guess is that there are ~100 separate details covering every conceivable generic installation and type of tile setting product.
 
R

Rob Z

Hi,

They installed what I would call a relatively thin (4mm) blue soft like sponge material, which I assumed is an insulatation barrier or spacer albeit small.

dingers

Dingers, this sounds like the same thing we use...I think it is about 3/16" thick....which might be about 4mm? :thumbsup:
 

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