Grout coming out and crackling noise under some tiles

[Sachin Parab]

Removing laitence from the floor is not just a case of a quick skim over or using a scrapper.
What method did he use and what equipment?
This year I ripped out and refixed an anhydride floor, which I know 100% was sanded by the contractor.
The reason I know is the client made a point of asking what they were doing.
The Builder then continued to install the floor with his Tiler.
9 months later it failed, on inspection, laitence was still present, it failed.
So we had to start from scratch, including re sanding of the floor.

The moisture reading using the hygrometer, how long were they left in place before readings taken?

I think a hand held sander was used. Is there a specific equipment he should have used.

The hygrometer readings were taken in 72 hours.

How do we check if laitance has been completely removed.

Thanks

 

[Old Mod]

You really do need to remove a tile to see what’s beneath.
The cracking sound is where the tile has de bonded from the floor.
It’s important now to determine what has de bonded. The tile from adhesive, or adhesive from floor.
That will narrow down your search for an answer.
The floor need sanding back to expose the aggregates to be 100% sure it’s been removed.
First two images have laitence still remaining on the failed floor, bearing in mind some has already been removed and some was stuck to the tile.


Enlarging the last image you can see the dark spots, that is the aggregates.
Can be done with a hand grinder but that’s quite an area for a small machine.
More typically a floor sander would be used.
(They look like an industrial cleaners buffing machine) but you would fit abrasive discs instead, around 60# grit.
And you need dust extraction.
You can see the quantity produced.
And priming is critical when using a cementitious adhesive on an anhydride floor.
2 coats is not necessarily enough.
And they should be applied perpendicular to each other.

 

[Sachin Parab]

You really do need to remove a tile to see what’s beneath.
The cracking sound is where the tile has de bonded from the floor.
It’s important now to determine what has de bonded. The tile from adhesive, or adhesive from floor.
That will narrow down your search for an answer.
The floor need sanding back to expose the aggregates to be 100% sure it’s been removed.
First two images have laitence still remaining on the failed floor, bearing in mind some has already been removed and some was stuck to the tile.
View attachment 94599 View attachment 94600 View attachment 94601 View attachment 94602

Enlarging the last image you can see the dark spots, that is the aggregates.
Can be done with a hand grinder but that’s quite an area for a small machine.
More typically a floor sander would be used.
(They look like an industrial cleaners buffing machine) but you would fit abrasive discs instead, around 60# grit.
And you need dust extraction.
You can see the quantity produced.
And priming is critical when using a cementitious adhesive on an anhydride floor.
2 coats is not necessarily enough.
And they should be applied perpendicular to each other.

View attachment 94603

Thanks a lot for this. I will speak to the builder accordingly.

 

[Qwerty]

What is his previous experience with anhydrite screeds & tiling to them?

 

[Sachin Parab]

What is his previous experience with anhydrite screeds & tiling to them?

He claims to have done these before and used the same screed and it has worked well

 

[Chalker]

He claims to have done these before and used the same screed and it has worked well

Maybe he hasn't done a floor this big before.
Tiling a large floor has more complications. The main one on underfloor heating is expansion. If there are large areas with form of expansion, like doorways and large single rooms the floor will move and the tiles won't. This can debond the tiles.
As said above the screed should be dry, then it should be abraded to remove the latience. Then vacuumed and primed. 2 coats is a general rule, but it should be primed until it stops soaking in.
Then a flexible adhesive suitable for the screed in question. With good priming, a cement based adhesive can be used. But far better to use an gypsum based adhesive, as that's what the floor is.depending on the size of the are a decoupling membrane should be used. Expansion strips should be installed to help large rooms and in doorways, as different rooms expand at different rates. Tiles should then be fixed with a notched trowel and tiles back buttered.

Not knowing the sizes of the room,I would guess this is an expansion related problem. I would bet your going to remove a tile and agin find the adhesive is stuck to the tile and not the floor.

To sort this, it needs two things.
1. Fitting as above with close attention to movement joints and uncoupling.
2. Get a tiler with experience of large gypsum based floors.

 

[Rookery]

or 3, avoid gypsum floors like the plague they are.

 

[Flintstone]

You have said that a couple of times in different threads. Have you had a bad experience your self with anhydrite floors? If you do what your supposed to do and prepare them correctly, they are a dream to tile due to there flatness.

 

[Rookery]

They're a complete pain in the arse. I've never had a failure myself but have re-done a few where the people before didn't know what to do and so there often were failures. Its always the same things too, too much moisture/laitance not removed/removed wrong time/inadequate priming/etc/etc and they're still not always flat. What's wrong with a sand & cement screed, you know where you are with one of those and if you want it flat, lay it flat. It's interesting that the regular firms I use such as Mapei/BAL/Weber here don't sell a gypsum adhesive. Do they know more than me? Well probably but I'm not going to tile onto anhydrite again. Too many variables. If they want to tile onto anhydrite they can get some other idiot to do it, I don't need it.

 

[Blunt Tool]

They're a complete pain in the arse. I've never had a failure myself but have re-done a few where the people before didn't know what to do and so there often were failures. Its always the same things too, too much moisture/laitance not removed/removed wrong time/inadequate priming/etc/etc and they're still not always flat. What's wrong with a sand & cement screed, you know where you are with one of those and if you want it flat, lay it flat. It's interesting that the regular firms I use such as Mapei/BAL/Weber here don't sell a gypsum adhesive. Do they know more than me? Well probably but I'm not going to tile onto anhydrite again. Too many variables. If they want to tile onto anhydrite they can get some other idiot to do it, I don't need it.

You really don’t like it do you

 

[Rookery]

No. And there's another 2 threads today which reinforces my point.

 

[Flintstone]

There only a pain if you don’t know how to deal with them.

 

[Ajax123]

Havent read through the entjre thread but was curious...If the builder used lafarge anhydrite screed why has an investigation been started by cemex?

Problem sounds relatively straight forward... screed not dry and no moisture test done 3 weeks is not long enough for drying a screed properly. Im guessing prep was not done correctly either.

 

[Chalker]

We've had it me this year on a massive new build. Laid in February and took until September to fully dry, with the heat in for a month.

 

[Rookery]

There only a pain if you don’t know how to deal with them.

Like on this floor which has been done twice by someone who allegedly knew what he was doing and it's still failed.

 

[Flintstone]

He obviously didn’t know what he’s doing!

 

[Ajax123]

They're a complete pain in the arse. I've never had a failure myself but have re-done a few where the people before didn't know what to do and so there often were failures. Its always the same things too, too much moisture/laitance not removed/removed wrong time/inadequate priming/etc/etc and they're still not always flat. What's wrong with a sand & cement screed, you know where you are with one of those and if you want it flat, lay it flat. It's interesting that the regular firms I use such as Mapei/BAL/Weber here don't sell a gypsum adhesive. Do they know more than me? Well probably but I'm not going to tile onto anhydrite again. Too many variables. If they want to tile onto anhydrite they can get some other idiot to do it, I don't need it.

Interesting that both Weber and mapei have gypsum based adhesives in mainland Europe though where there's quite a lot ,more anhydrite used. In the UK it is still increasing at a huge rate with this year acheiving something like 3million square meters plus.with increased penetration into all market sectors. A huge proportion of this is tiles without any issues whatsoever. There are many issues with sand cement screed. People dont generally choose their screed based on the fact that numpty tilers dont do the job properly. There are a good many good competent tiles who tile anhydrite screed almost daily and do not have issues. Stop blaming the screed and start looking more closely at what you are doing...

 

[Rookery]

I know perfectly well what I'm doing than you very much. And working on a gypsum floor isn't going to be one of them.

 

[Blunt Tool]

Tiling onto anhydrite screeds - Weber - https://www.netweber.co.uk/tile-fixing-products/help-and-advice/problem-solutions/tiling-onto-anhydrite-screeds.html

 

[Ajax123]

I know perfectly well what I'm doing than you very much. And working on a gypsum floor isn't going to be one of them.

Which is of course your prerogative and your choice. However that is not because anhydrite screeds are bad or tricky or "a complete pain in the wotsit". If they were that bad or that tricky they would not be so incredibly successful and widely used. There are so many really tangible advantages to using gypsum as a screed binder when compared to cement screed in many cases it is a no brainer. What made me laugh most of all was the fact you said you have never had an issue with one yourself and you have been perfectly happy to sort out other tillers **** ups on them... your comments are in conflict with themselves...

 

[Rookery]

Not true and seeing as you seem in the business of selling these screeds you have a vested interest. This site is frequented with more than its fair share of tiling problems involving gypsum screeds but I'm pleased to say I will not be addressing them anymore, I'm happy to leave them to others.

 

[ATZ Tiling]

The bolts and braces way would of been to put a decoupling membrane down, something like durable c++ after the floor is primed. This let's the floor flex, has a water/moisture barrier and let's a small amount of air under the tiles. Done this many times and, touch wood, never had a problem, even on floors twice this size. My understanding is with most anhydrated screeds is that you don't need any expansion joints under 300m2 unless you see cracking. It's softer than a typical concrete floor so most don't recommend using a cement adhesive but a Gypsum based as the cement based is too strong for the floor. To be honest if you do see cracking, which is quite common, you would use a decoupling membrane anyway.

 

[Flintstone]

Yeah don’t think there is any need for decoupling over anhydrite unless there are substantial cracks of a couple of mm wide, as they do not expand and contract like a cement based screed

 

[Ajax123]

The bolts and braces way would of been to put a decoupling membrane down, something like durable c++ after the floor is primed. This let's the floor flex, has a water/moisture barrier and let's a small amount of air under the tiles. Done this many times and, touch wood, never had a problem, even on floors twice this size. My understanding is with most anhydrated screeds is that you don't need any expansion joints under 300m2 unless you see cracking. It's softer than a typical concrete floor so most don't recommend using a cement adhesive but a Gypsum based as the cement based is too strong for the floor. To be honest if you do see cracking, which is quite common, you would use a decoupling membrane anyway.

Maximum single bay size is indeed 300m2 but there should be movement joints at door thresholds, between independently controlled zones and where heated meets unheated. Unfortunately these joints are very often not included. The reason for using gypsum adhesive is to do with chemical compatibility. Gypsum adhesive is actually as strong as cement based in general but the level of shrinkage is much lower.

 

[LM]

This is a question so go easy.
If the floor is primed correctly then in theory it shouldn’t matter if you use cementitous adhesive over gypsum based as the primer is separating the adhesive from the substrate. Am I mistaken?

 

[Qwerty]

No you're right, I've seen a fair few done that way and they have been absolutely spot on. After all, that's what we do with gypsum walls. It's the prep and laitance removal that often causes the failure

 

[LM]

Gypsum adhesive isn't available here off the shelf so I've always used traditional adhesive. I've tiled scores of anhydrite screeds and never had a problem. As you say it's all to do with the prep.

 

[Flintstone]

Do you uncouple your anhydrite screeds, Lee? With porcelain tiles

 

[LM]

I haven't done yet, but I was pricing a large floor a few months back that had a lot of hairline cracks in it and I priced for uncoupling in that instance. Incidentally my caution more than likely made me too expensive as I didn't get the job but I wasn't going to risk it and tile directly to that particular screed, not worth it.

 

[Flintstone]

I don’t uncouple over anhydrite either with porcelain. I had one of the Tilemaster reps out to asses a floor last year as I had a few concerns about it for a few reasons, One it wasn’t dry after 9 months and two it had some cracks in, I was told not to worry about the cracks unless there pretty wide, Enough to stick a 2pence coin in