Tubbed adhesive

[SandyFloor]

I'm playing devil's advocate here.

I've been asked a question a couple of times in recent weeks I can't answer.

There's a very strong tone on this forum saying tubbed adhesive is 'crap' , 'rubbish', 'useless' 'wouldn't even use it for a splashback' etc. Now mixed adhesive is a must for large format due to it setting rather than drying but every manufacturer (including a sponsor of this forum) has a very large range of tubbed adhesive for every other application including several suitable for showers.

The questions generally are: Are they wrong?...Are they selling products not fit for purpose? Do you know more than the highly educated scientific minds that develop the stuff?

As I said....devil's advocate.....

 

[paul78]

doesnt mean it wont work if people call it crap. just tilers own preference of materials and rather use stuff thats better.

similar to a fiat and a mercedes, fiat still goes into gear and drives but you know which one you would rather take on a long journey........

 

[jay]

wonder were this came from

 

[SandyFloor]

There's at least a couple here Ready Mixed Adhesives

But plenty of tubbed addy has clearly marked on the tub 'suitable for showers.'

 

[jay]

interesting but ill stick with cement based adh
thanks

 

[Deleted member 9966]

I think what the general public need to realise is that tubbed adhesives come from a variety of manufacturers, some of which are more successful and useable than others.

Mapei for instance do make the ready mixed adhesives as per your link above Sandy, and I have used these myself in my bathroom and shower room on non-wet areas such as splashbacks and window sills, when tiling with lightweight simple ceramic tiles. For personal peace of mind, in wet areas, I used powdered adhesives that required mixing. I believe BAL also make some ready mixed adhesives but I'm not familiar with their purpose or specifications in their range.

On the forum we tend to advise members of the public to avoid ready mixed adhesives from DIY stores (own brand, unibond etc) as these haven't been manufactured for the professional market. Professional members of this forum would be unable to advocate the use of them because of the consideration of quality and the strict conditions in which the ready mixed adhesives would need to be used to ensure that it meets the manufacturers criteria to sustain it's product guarantee.

The manufacturers are always trying to find an "edge". Whether that be by making a product that is easier to apply, quicker to dry, faster to use etc, each manufacturer will try their best to win their customer's heart and mind.

I think the best advice we can give anybody who comes here asking about ready mixed adhesives is that they have a place or suitability for some tiling jobs but not all. It will depend on tile size, substrate, use of the area being tiled and so on.

And I think it's worth noting that tile adhesive, as expensive as it is, is still relatively cheap considering how much money would have to be spent if the wrong choice about adhesive was made and a room or two ruined by a water leak for example.

 

[user123]

I always understood that air is needed for ready mixed to cure, whereas cement cures even under water. In the training course Darren explained that we are using Tubbed for training purposes because at the end of the course we had to be able to remove all the tiles, i.e. our work, again (that was tough!!) and clean the boards up ready for the next students. And yes, the tiles came off alright, not after hours but days, it showed to me that tubbed stuff is just not strong enough to feel really good about it in any permanent installation. I think in the case of my tiny mosaic pieces I might be able to get away with it, as there would be enough air, if I left it long enough, to reach the tubbed adhesive, and no weight to speak off.

So why sell tubbed? IMO it is sold because it holds tiles up (a little bit like a bluetack equivalent 🙂 ) and the average DIYer doesn't have paddlemixers handy, mixing powdered adhesive is really hard work and is so offputting, so yes, there is a market for all those who have never even heard of paddle mixers ever, which is probably everyone except of tilers! And how many DIYers would go and buy a paddle mixer for their little job in the bathroom, when there is a nice convenient ready mix standing there?

I totally get the question though, I find it confusing, too, because what it says on the tin is very convincing. Same with the adhesive + grout in one idea, I have no idea what the chemical difference is between cement adhesive and grout, and one of my first mosaic plagues I made I used some evostick, or similar, can't quite remember the brand, ready mixed adhesive +grout suitable for showers it said, a little tub, in white, the plague lives outside and nothing has fallen off 4 years on, still looks like new, which I belive is down to the minute size and weight of the tesserae I used.

 

[TTT]

For the DIYer tubbed is good enough for prof tiler it too is good enough all depends on the tile, size and the substrate. Only prob i have with tubbed stuff is they say a D1 is fine to use in showers when truthly its not has to be a D2, that should be changed so the DIYer knows what to be using in a shower.

 

[Ian]

I think in an ideal scenario tubbed adhesives will acheive a satisfactory result but, rarely do you get an ideal scenario. The vast majority of tubbed adhesives can't be applied above 3mm so this means prep work has to be 100%, again this is all about making money so time is precious and we can't spend days on prep work when using a cement based addy will allow fixers to make adjustments during tiling. I used BAL blue and white star for years before I changed to powdered and they always did the job. Another thing is that a bag will give you more meterage for your money and, with rapid setting products, grouting can be done on the same day, both ways of maximising the profit for all of us who rely on tiling to pay the bills.

 

[merlecollins]

I challenge anyone to criticise Sovereign Goldstar tubbed adhesive.....sets in approx 1 hour and is like bell metal when cured
Horses for courses though:smilewinkgrin:
I can remember doing a Malmaison Hotel with Ardex D20 when it first came out - going back to chop out and replace damaged tiles was an absolute nightmare, plasterboard destroyed everytime:incazzato:

 

[DHTiling]

1 hr... ok..:lol:... you supping early..:lol:

 

[merlecollins]

1 hr... ok..:lol:... you supping early..:lol:

try it and come back to me.......

 

[Andy Allen]

most housing site tilers i know all use tubbed addy, not saying its a good thing, but now you know whos buying it all :lol:

just out of interest what would you do if a customer has purchased all the adhesive for a bathroom and its tubbed stuff, but suitable for the walls and tiles, would you use it? taking into account the tile shop would be under no obligation to give a refund as the adhesive sold is fit for the job.

 

[DHTiling]

try it and come back to me.......

Used to use it yrs and yrs ago and IMO no dispersion adhesive sets in 1 hr...

 

[Time's Ran Out]

1974 - Bal Tad, Sovereign, and Nicobond all produced tubbed adhesives - where are they now?

The only change I can see these days is the size of the tiles.
There are adhesives for all types of tiles today so stick with the manufacturers recommendations and use the appropriate one.

 

[grumpygrouter]

Interesting topic this especially for DIYers. My opinion is that there is nothing wrong with tubbed stuff if you have the correct substrate and ceramic tiles of an approriate size. Drawback of course is maximum bed thickness and setting time, along with cost effectiveness as powdered stuff can be cheaper per m2 than a good tubbed addy. Only ever used White Star and Ardex D20 and didn't have a problem with either of them....except cleaning the trowel from dried on White Star...forgot to clean it once when I first started tiling and it was a real pain to clean the next morning.......

 

[Wood's better]

Just to clarify to anyone wanting to make there own judgement, the adhesive used in training courses is special Training Adhesive.(usually) It is made to have just enough grab to hold, however, cleans off for the next person to work on the same wall.

 

[Wood's better]

Just to clarify: comments above in reply to Mosaic Girls comments about adhesive during training course.

 

[user123]

Just to clarify to anyone wanting to make there own judgement, the adhesive used in training courses is special Training Adhesive.(usually) It is made to have just enough grab to hold, however, cleans off for the next person to work on the same wall.

Interesting, maybe Darren would confirm either way what was used... 🙂 He did advise to use powdered adhesive. 🙂

 

[TTT]

Mosaic Girl when i trained we used training powdered adhesive which took days to properly go off have no idea who made it though but made easy work of knocking them off the wall.
Bri prep has to be 100% no matter if your using tubbed or powdered addy. Most powder addy is only meant to be built up to 6mm rather be pulling down a wall and putting a nice flat one up to tile to rather than packing out! I remeber reading somewhere fail to prepare, prepare to fail. Always thought that was a good quote.

 

[suave]

Mosaic Girl when i trained we used training powdered adhesive which took days to properly go off have no idea who made it though but made easy work of knocking them off the wall.
Bri prep has to be 100% no matter if your using tubbed or powdered addy. Most powder addy is only meant to be built up to 6mm rather be pulling down a wall and putting a nice flat one up to tile to rather than packing out! I remeber reading somewhere fail to prepare, prepare to fail. Always thought that was a good quote.

bal and weber supply the the college iam at with powdered training adhesive,it it scraped off the wall scooped back into a bucket,add water and its ready to use again,nitemare to scrape off when fully cured

 

[diamondtiling]

Tubbed???

DIY users only.

 

[Stef]

I think this has been a good thread to read up on. we use tubbed adhesive every other day on site, as stated earlier, its the difference between a D1 & a D2 that some people should be concerned about, both are suitable for "a shower application" as stated on some tubs but i would only ever use a D2 in a shower as it wont be broken back down by water ( only up to 300mm square ceramic, white star ) On all the sites we have worked on & a bit of repair work we have carried out i dont think i have ever seen anyone using a powder, its mostly always smaller sized ceramics that are fitted on site.

 

[Stef]

The thumbnails that are up are from a site in east kilbride that we got asked to go to & do a repair on a shower, site agent said it was a cheap tubbed adhesive & grout that was used, the grout had failed badly. this was the 3rd attempt at the repair before we got asked to go & have a look at it.

 

[DHTiling]

That is a megga amount of water ingression...

As a rule now.. i never use a dispersion adhesive on any tiling.. apart from the nice empty buckets it has no use in the domestic market..

 

[Stef]

Dave i know what you mean but if we are on site "labour only" then we can only use what is supplied, its hard enough trying to get them to buy bal white star or mapei D2. dont get me wrong more & more companys are starting to realise that its more than just sticking tiles to a wall!!! as the pictures above, we had tiled the garden flats at the site in east kilbride (about 50/60) showers & not one has failed, job done 5/6 years ago, these were the houses on the site & most of the showers have failed. As soon as you walk in the houses you can smell the dampness in the air. truly shocking!!!!

 

[DHTiling]

I am surprised they shell out for white star when bagged is cheaper and goes further... but as you say.. you are only sticking them on and supplying nothing..

 

[macten]

Used it for kitchen splashbacks. Flat walls, 10x10s then tubbed is ideal.
Won't use it for anything else though.

 

[garybadger]

So are we saying now that tubbed adhesive should be scrapped and therefore be going with the bagged stuff? The problem with that right now in the current climate is cost.
Everyone is cutting their costs but suppliers are being hit with an increase in costs by the couriers etc. I've noticed a difference in the prices I'm having to pay for stuff and indeed one of my suppliers is closing down at the end of the month.
Have went to the builders etc that I do work for and none of them are wanting to pay the extra ££.
I've personally never had a problem with using the tubbed adhesives and as long as you use the correct grout's and Silicon. Everything should be fine!

 

[Time's Ran Out]

The gist of the debate would appear to be to use the appropriate adhesive for the substrate type and the size of tile. Most manufacturers technical information advise that tubbed adhesives are to be restricted to tiles of 300x300mm and below.
As for cost - post26/Dave - I'd agree that it is cost effective to use the bagged adhesive, the only drawback is you have to buy mixing buckets.

 

[garybadger]

I'll give you an example then Timeless John. I'm doing House Building tiling work and I've been buying the same spec as Blue Star so i can tile the shower areas(all plasterboard) without having to worry about anything. Tiles I have been using range from 300 x 200, but now new ranges are coming in and I have a 300 x 450 tile which I will shortly be using and another which is a 500x333 or there abouts.. Now i can get 6-7m2 out of a tub which I've been getting at £6.75 plus V.A.T but I have went to the house builder and told them that with the new sizes of tiles we need a stronger adhesive to hold them up, bearing in mind the tiles are heavier. therefore the costs increase in materials. All to which I got veto'd. If you buy Mapei Keraquik at £13.95 plus V.A.T a bag and your getting 7m2 max. How is it cost effective to use the bagged adhesive?