tiling over floor grade chipboard

[ollymonkeynuts]

Ive just read this thread with interest. Im about to attempt a 6sqm bathroom floor and walls (total 23sqm) in travertine with UFH over floor joists. Im reading various threads for advice before starting. I have BAL SPF and 18mm T&G chipboard. I know ply is best but im trying to use the chipboard. This is left over from boarding the loft. I also have 22mm chipboard available. I have read all the advice and spoken to BAL technical support who state 10mm tile backerboard over 18mm chipboard and use of a SLC to cover and protect the UFH mat will ensure all goes to plan. Question now being should/could I use the 22mm chipboard with maybe 6mm Marmox - would that be better?
P.S. I wonder if there is a tile equivilant of a 7yr itch in a marriage, when everything goes wrong? I'd love a 7yr update from the sharpefamily. If all is good then I think he really has done well!!!

 

[White Room]

I use 6mm backerboard for laying on floors..glued and screwed.

 

[ollymonkeynuts]

6mm backerboard over 18mm chip? or best to use the 22mm chip? or best to stick with the 10mm (due to the chipboard) on the 18mm chip?

 

[White Room]

I did'nt even know they done 10mm backerboard, 12.5mm is the one for walls..

 

[sharpfamily]

the general consensus in this long thread is that I've been very lucky that my 3yr old floor has been successful. Tiling onto floor grade (green) 22mm chipboard is seen as a big no no.

Backerboards or membranes are seen as essential. backerboards have disadvantage of increase in floor height and membranes (eg ci matting) look very messy and time consuming to install. also many recommend use of 2 part flexible adhesives, which are expensive and messy compared with bal spf. there's also bal single part fastflex which is less messy and less cost than 2 part fastflex.

But in the interests of a learning discussion, I respectfully challenge the forum to offer reasons as to why my floor has been successful so far. It can't be down to luck and 3 yrs is a pretty long test period. (but maybe there is a 7yr itch in tiling!)

My suggestions as to why other tiles over chipboard may have failed are:
- chipboard wrong grade/quality ie not green moisture resistant, t&g boards 22mm
- inadequate floor construction - floor not sufficiently solid ie movement/deflection
can be detected
- damp proofing under floor construction not adequate
- undetected water pipe leaks or undetected leaks from dishwasher/washing machine
- frequent wetting eg bathrooms and weak grouting
- chipboard not thoughly dry at start of tiling
- chipboard has been sanded and that's reduced its moisture resistance
- tiling carried out in very cold conditions
- incorrect mixing/application
- the adhesive and grout used not as good as bal products
- bad luck?

I'm happy to continue to report back annually of the floor's performance and will let the forum know if any problems arise.

best,
graham

 

[Stef]

To reply to the above, you have been very lucky with your floor install. it states above that bal technical advised overboard with 10mm backer board over 18mm c/b.
The one thing , & i think i can talk here on behalf of a lot of tilers, is that joe public think that it is "Only tiling", "its easy". We tile as professionals & when we give advice it is not to rip someone off. we give that advice to be honest & to make sure that our install will last the test of time.
Put it this way. you as a home owner get someone in to work on your boiler or electrics within your house, would you "Cut Corners" with any aspect of any of these jobs? Definitely Not. so why would you cut corners with tiling?
As i have already stated you have been lucky with your floor.

 

[Perry]

reminds me of Humpty Dumpty :mad2:

 

[Andy Allen]

low foot traffic, and luck, and 3 years realy isnt that long, people dig up near perfect roman mosiacs, not on chipboard though..

 

[sharpfamily]

in brief response to the above 3 posts:

hi robson - please, I'm certainly not saying 'only tiling'...'it's easy'.

hi pjc - head banging, is that the answer?

hi andy - yes, the room only has foot traffic plus grandkids trikes, but it is the main family room, so the traffic is as least as heavy as in any large family room. As regards 3 years, some had stated earlier in the thread, that the floor wouldn't last 3 months because the fresh wet adhesive would cause the green chipboard to start to swell and the tiles to crack.
Luck - surely there must be more rational reasons than just luck. There are just absolutely no signs of distress in the tiling and the floor will have seen many changes in temp and humidity etc in over 3 years of Aberdeenshire climate, and floor cleaning etc. Can't see that much longer term foot traffic would lead to fatigue failure of the tiling. Liked your comment about roman mosaics.

best,
g

 

[Stef]

in brief response to the above 3 posts:

hi robson - please, I'm certainly not saying 'only tiling'...'it's easy'.

hi pjc - head banging, is that the answer?

hi andy - yes, the room only has foot traffic plus grandkids trikes, but it is the main family room, so the traffic is as least as heavy as in any large family room. As regards 3 years, some had stated earlier in the thread, that the floor wouldn't last 3 months because the fresh wet adhesive would cause the green chipboard to start to swell and the tiles to crack.
Luck - surely there must be more rational reasons than just luck. There are just absolutely no signs of distress in the tiling and the floor will have seen many changes in temp and humidity etc in over 3 years of Aberdeenshire climate, and floor cleaning etc. Can't see that much longer term foot traffic would lead to fatigue failure of the tiling. Liked your comment about roman mosaics.

best,
g

I see you didnt answer my question about working on your boiler or electrics. would you really cut corners of any aspects of these jobs?
the point im trying to make is that guys & girls on here are professional tilers & this is who is best placed to give advice. chipboard is not a suitable subrate to tile too.

 

[kilty55]

in brief response to the above 3 posts:

hi robson - please, I'm certainly not saying 'only tiling'...'it's easy'.

hi pjc - head banging, is that the answer?


hi sharpfamily, as others have stated tiling directly onto chipboard is not the way forward especially for a pro tiler with a business reputation to keep intact

i also think you have been lucky,some installations do seem to be okay but lots get ripped out

i have ripped out countless floors all in new builds onto chipboard flooring with fastflex

some have been down a year some 2 some 4 some even 5 years

the tiles begin to crack generally,sometimes only 2 or 3 but its enough to ruin the floor especially when you have no spares

would i want to lay 40 metres of porcelain for someone and accept they may crack in 4 years?

the answer is NO

 

[Spud]

I am going to stick my fingers in my ears and go "la la la la la la "

 

[grumpygrouter]

I am going to stick my fingers in my ears and go "la la la la la la "

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:...

 

[Tabby Cranks]

I think we need to rewind a bit here.
The advice given from the start is the correct advice. Most tilers wouldn't tile onto green chipboard even with an adhesive like fastflex. The reason is not because they want to make more work for themselves, but because they have seen the failures over a period of time. Their experience backs up what the BS states with regard fixing onto timber floors.
I've heard of bathroom floors that have been down 20+ years, fixed onto 6mm hardboard. You would never recommend fixing onto that.

You can illustrate it this way. If the law states that you should not drink more than 2 pints and drive, but if I drink four, drive for 10 years without an accident, does that mean that the law is wrong? No, there are lots of other things that could mean that me drinking 4 pints has a lot less effect on someone drink 2. I hope you're getting my point.
That is that your floor may indeed may have enough good things going for it, to minimise the risk of movement, thus keeping the floor sound.
I wonder how it would be if they were your kids and not grandkids, running over it on a day to day basis etc...
One more thing, does that room stay fairly cool all day, or does the sunshine in during the day, then cool at night?
All being said, you may well have a floor that will stay good for many years (using a quality adhesive helps), you took a calculated risk and it's paid off. The thing is proffessional tilers wouldn't take those kind of risks, they'll give you advice how they see fit.

 

[Perry]

We have tried to give you advise based on combined dozens of years of experience and tried to explain what problems you are going to have. You have chosen to ignore what has been suggested sadly.

Hopefully things will be OK for you. Good luck, I hope you are still crack free at christmas.

Grumps as you know some of clever people know better than us with all there experience 1 job lol

 

[sharpfamily]

hello Tabby,
thanks for your comments. you're right i took a calculated risk and so far it's paid off. I could do this because it's my home, i was doing it, and the job wasn't safety critical (cf. electrics, boilers, drinking & driving etc ) and, with a professional engineering background, i felt competent to do the risk assessment.

I fully appreciate the commercial risks professional tilers have.

However, I'm still interested to understand why my floor has worked given all the strong advice that it won't and the multi-varied suggestions of what should be done: eg the many brands and types of adhesive, overboarding with ply, various backer boards, membranes etc. There are so many variations on the methods and products the professionals use - all seem to have their own personal preferences.

As regards your queries - I think the traffic load on the floor over the past 3 years will have been at least domestic average, as the room is the main family room - nb the 6 grandkids vary in age from 6months to 14 years but obviously not all here on day to day basis! I can't believe floor traffic is a key issue here.

As regards temperature effects. The windows face due south so during summer days, the sun shines directly onto the floor. In winter the room is heated by a multi fuel stove and we like the temp in the room to be high. When we're away in the winter, the room has little heating and gets very very cold....especially last winter. So the floor has seen many wide temperature variations over the 3 years.

As regards adhesive, I understand BAL don't recommend their SPF on chipboard - may be they're cautiously underestimating the performance of their product, given the variety/quality of chipboards/floor construction. I had used BAL 2 part flexible (+BAL shower kit) on my first tiling here (5 years ago) in our shower room with warmup under tile heating on warmup insulation boards. It's performed very well, but I found the 2 part very messy and unpleasant to work with and it's dear. My last job here (2yrs ago) was on another shower room, again with undertile electric heating, and that time I used the newer bal single part fastflex product. (+ BAL shower kit). Again this has performed very well and was much more pleasant to use that the 2 part and significantly lower cost.

I hope this thread has given interest & food for thought. I wish all tilers good luck.

best,graham

 

[Andy Allen]

ahhh your an engineer, that explains alot, most engineers we get on here seem to know more about tiling than all of us put together lol.

i dont understand why you keep saying bal fast flex is messeir to work with than single part fast flex, its the same product, apart from one you mix with a liquid, and one you mix with water hence the cheaper price.

floor traffic has a lot to do with it, get a piece of chipboard, tile and grout it and the tiles will be fine, jump up and down on it and they will brake, the more you jump up and down on it the more it will brake, if its just you and your wife at home with the occasional visit from the grand kids then i would put it in the low foot traffic bracket.

bal products imo, are some of the best on the market, abeit expensive for day to day use, however to say they may be underestimating there products i find absurd, you have a company that invest millions in product research, to produce adhesives suitable for all most every tile application you can think of, providing you follow there recommended guide lines.

your floor is still down now and i hope it stays that way, but lets face it, if it were to all crack up in 6 months time would you really come back here and tell us?

 

[sharpfamily]

andy - yes, i will report back if the floor does start to show signs of distress......any possible embarrassment in this forum would be nothing, compared to my embarassment with family, friends and neighbours.

Regarding your other comments, thanks, but:

Low floor traffic has got to be a red herring here, as the room is big & multi functional. It's been subject to heavy loading from several big parties over the 3yrs......including dancing!

& how many folk are usually in say a domestic kitchen anyway on a day to day basis.....the chief cook and bottle washer.

I think the key thing is that my floor is solid with no measurable deflection or bounce.

Also, I found bal 2 part fast flex (used for small shower uth floor) messy and harder to clean off compared to bal single part flexible that I used on the family room floor. I found new single part fast flex is not as messy as the 2 part on the other shower room uth floor.....maybe because it's water based. On the walls of the shower rooms I used bal single part flexible (plus bal shower kit) onto plasterboard.

g

 

[Rich]

Wow!

How did I miss this thread!?

I love structural engineers!

 

[widler]

people,lets stop internet biatching,jeez, the man has tiled a floor,not the way we would do it,but he has,its lasted all this time,maybe it will last 10 more years.
i ripped a floor up last year,tiled onto these boards,only 4m2,they had been down 7 years,i know,its my neighbours,agood mate,he moved out the other year the new lady dident like em,i re tiled it for her,and i swear on my girls,it was the hardest floor i have ripped up,i dont know what he used,but the tiles came up in tiny bits,and what adhisive stuck to the floor,i had to chip up a bit at a time.
a right pain

 

[sharpfamily]

hello widler - many thanks for your generous concluding comment on this very, very long thread.

I don't think there's anything more to be said. Meanwhile I've already promised I will report back to the forum if my floor does start to show distress.

good luck to all.

best,
graham

 

[kilty55]

good luck graham,i really hope it doesnt fail

 

[ollymonkeynuts]

Is this turning out to be the longest/oldest thread on record??!!:lol:

 

[sharpfamily]

& I shall be reporting back every year my floor retains its integrity........could go on for ever??.......hopefully!!!

blimey I see there's been nearly 14,000 viewings of this thread......so far.

 

[Andy Allen]

we shall look forward to it...

 

[Perry]

Is this turning out to be the longest/oldest thread on record??!!:lol:

and i don't think its a good thread as people reading might be misguided, and do the same. its fine if you can afford to be so arrogant, but if you cant, which most people cant, it would be a shame if someone else followed the same route, and ended up as most jobs would done that way would. also if our customers started asking for us to tile that way

 

[sharpfamily]

and i don't think its a good thread as people reading might be misguided, and do the same. its fine if you can afford to be so arrogant, but if you cant, which most people cant, it would be a shame if someone else followed the same route, and ended up as most jobs would done that way would. also if our customers started asking for us to tile that way

Arrogant!?- that's very unfair.

But here's an idea regarding your concerns: You can now simply provide readers with a bullet point summary of what you believe to be best tiling practice when faced with an existing chipboard floor.

 

[DHTiling]

For others reading this thread... Just because this job has held for 3 years does not mean that it is correct to tile direct to chipboard.. YES! adhesives will stick to it and have done for years, the concern is that as a particle board it is not dimensionally stable enough to hold the tiles in the long term, 3 years might sound long enough to test it, but as tilers we have to guarantee a tiled installation and to say that it is ok to tile to a substrate when really it should not be ,is incorrect for someone to say it is so..

So please do listen to those who do this day in day out and not a DIY'r who has been lucky..

 

[sharpfamily]

OK. For clarity & readers benefit, opportunity surely for you to give the bullet point summary of what the best professional tiling practice is for existing chipboard floors.




I'd like to make some context comment regarding the value of the 3 yrs test period. In the schluter-ditra handbook they give a warranty of.......... just 5 yrs! Hardiebacker give a longer 10 yrs warranty. BAL a massive 25 yrs (but not over chipboard). Meanwhile, of course as time passes, there are changes in interior style/design - eg how long is it before a sound tile floor is simply the wrong colour for the new decor!!? 3yrs is pretty long.....especially for any gross errors to have shown....meanwhile the test goes on.

 

[Perry]

Arrogant!?- that's very unfair.

But here's an idea regarding your concerns: You can now simply provide readers with a bullet point summary of what you believe to be best tiling practice when faced with an existing chipboard floor.

sorry it was the wrong word to use not what i was looking for good with my hands not with words perhaps the opposite to yourself cant think of a word to describe it sort of **** sure but against fact sorry but i had a poor education i didn't meen to sound rude

 

[jay]

Interesting read http://194.223.92.131/pdf/Technical Data Sheets/B & C Technical Data Sheets/BAL_Single_Part_Flex.pdf