Tilers that do plumbing work

[mikethetile]

Rob

just had a thought

did you ever go into faux work or trompe l oi as its also known

 

[White Room]

The main thing is is that you are your own worse critic then improve next time

 

[Colour Republic]

The main thing is is that you are your own worse critic then improve next time

never a truer word said

 

[Colour Republic]

Rob

just had a thought

did you ever go into faux work or trompe l oi as its also known

I did although it wasn't always my favorite in domestic situations, the odd fireplace hear and there, I worked with a guy who use to get a lot of commissions from churches and his work would make you feel worthless, a true artist

 

[faithhealer]

Rob

just had a thought

did you ever go into faux work or trompe l oi as its also known

whats that then Mike

 

[mikethetile]

whats that then Mike

faux is painting something to look like something else

so you can grain a piece of pine to look like oak or mahogany

or even marble, the victorians were masters at it

I do other effects too, malachite, tortiseshell etc, lapis luzi is a lovely effect

like everything else it got cheapened over the years and turned into brush graining where you just run a dry brush through the scumble to give the effect of graining

there was a revival in the 90s but the sheds killed it stone dead by offering kits that in inexperianced hands made it look a mess

also in the 90s decorating trends changed to solid blocks of colour usually white, with the loft style or minimalist look

anyone could work as painter

recently the art of the decorator is back with bold patterns on paper to be used as features

its one step away now from the return of the faux finish or broken colour effects

sponging, ragging etc will come back in for walls

trompe l oi is a trick of the eye where you paint something onto a flat surface and it looks 3d

one effect i did about twenty years ago was to paint a wall to look like it was tiled, i dont know why they just didnt have it tiled, stone blocks is the most common

its interesting work and very skilled

I was asking Rob as a high class decorator if he had experiance in it as its something he would use daily to disguise badly fitted joinery or rough walls

as following the defects emphasise them whereas cutting a straight line with your brush will lose them or decieve the eye

its all part of the art of the decorator

 

[jay]

colour republic i think the main difference between you and others is you care just think what it would be like if everyone did the same

 

[united]

faux is painting something to look like something else

so you can grain a piece of pine to look like oak or mahogany

or even marble, the victorians were masters at it

I do other effects too, malachite, tortiseshell etc, lapis luzi is a lovely effect

like everything else it got cheapened over the years and turned into brush graining where you just run a dry brush through the scumble to give the effect of graining

there was a revival in the 90s but the sheds killed it stone dead by offering kits that in inexperianced hands made it look a mess

also in the 90s decorating trends changed to solid blocks of colour usually white, with the loft style or minimalist look

anyone could work as painter

recently the art of the decorator is back with bold patterns on paper to be used as features

its one step away now from the return of the faux finish or broken colour effects

sponging, ragging etc will come back in for walls

trompe l oi is a trick of the eye where you paint something onto a flat surface and it looks 3d

one effect i did about twenty years ago was to paint a wall to look like it was tiled, i dont know why they just didnt have it tiled, stone blocks is the most common

its interesting work and very skilled

I was asking Rob as a high class decorator if he had experiance in it as its something he would use daily to disguise badly fitted joinery or rough walls

as following the defects emphasise them whereas cutting a straight line with your brush will lose them or decieve the eye

its all part of the art of the decorator

That sounds very interesting Mike

It must take a lot of skill to get the 3D look

Do you have any photos?

 

[mikethetile]

That sounds very interesting Mike

It must take a lot of skill to get the 3D look

Do you have any photos?

I wish I did

back in the day before digital cameras and pcs you photographed your work and put it into a portfolio

I kept mine in the van to have on hand to show anyone who was interested, all my college work, sample boards for my city and guilds , photos of work done were in a box along with my camera gear. a state of the art nikon set up. while I was at college I grained everything in sight

all my tool boxes were faux finished and sign written with my name and master decorator

one night the van disappeared with all my kit, I was gutted as some of the tools were bought second hand as they were no longer made and others like the badger softeners were about £80 then for 1 brush

but the thing that was irreplacable was my portfolio

I put a peice in the local paper offering a reward for its return, I even said they could keep the van just return my tools and portfolio

I have managed to replace the tools recently and ive found suppliers now for the scumble. though if it comes to it I can knock up my own

so this summer its sample boards and when they are done I will post pics

I have always fancied graining a van to make it look like its made of wood so I may well do that as an advert for the business

 

[united]

I wish I did

back in the day before digital cameras and pcs you photographed your work and put it into a portfolio

I kept mine in the van to have on hand to show anyone who was interested, all my college work, sample boards for my city and guilds , photos of work done were in a box along with my camera gear. a state of the art nikon set up. while I was at college I grained everything in sight

all my tool boxes were faux finished and sign written with my name and master decorator

one night the van disappeared with all my kit, I was gutted as some of the tools were bought second hand as they were no longer made and others like the badger softeners were about £80 then for 1 brush

but the thing that was irreplacable was my portfolio

I put a peice in the local paper offering a reward for its return, I even said they could keep the van just return my tools and portfolio

I have managed to replace the tools recently and ive found suppliers now for the scumble. though if it comes to it I can knock up my own

so this summer its sample boards and when they are done I will post pics

I have always fancied graining a van to make it look like its made of wood so I may well do that as an advert for the business

That's shocking mate, some people are just scum.

I'm sure there is a member on here who paints his vans up himself as an advert for his work, not sure who it was.

Look forward to your photos when your done

 

[Aston]

Hi rob colour -rep,

Like Scottley, I am sure you are great at what you do because you care and you work hard!! So imo there’s really no reason for you to justify yourself because as you stated, nobody is having a go at people who do aspects of more than one trade...it’s the way it is now.

BUT and this isn’t aimed at Rob lol....This is a general view

The only thing I have a minor issue with is,
I really don’t think the description; 'multi trader' is accurate. As that gives the impression you have more than one complete trade which is misleading and inaccurate?

If you do small aspects of each trade, then you are actually semi skilled. Because you do not possess the full training or formal qualifications / trade assessment and you have to accept and declare that you are not a tradesperson in that field and therefore not, multi skilled.........too many convenient titles have evolved through the boundaries being stretched beyond any credible confirmation.

whilst many people feel that they are 'very good' at most trades, there will be tilers, plasterers, plumbers , joiners etc who claim that, multi skilling really devalues their trade ...there description wouldn’t be a multi trader or multi skilled, they would describe those people as jobbers.. (That’s not my title, just throwing a different angle up in the air)
I actually prefer the term ‘ applied multi skilled’

My main point is, if you want to increase the quality, the skill factor, the speciality, the fairness, the professionalism of the building industry through its trades, then we need to go back to how it was because it produced time served top quality tradesman. British tradesman had a worldwide reputation as being one of the best. The way things have gone over the past 30 years has demonstrated that the quick fixes, stream lining and integrating of trades doesn’t work as well. In fact they dilute and therefore weaken the structure!!....you end up with partially trained operatives who will be rendered virtually useless if we ever decide to follow the cscs route on the domestic scene...and that’s where you find the majority of semi skilled operatives, the domestic scene because there’s no formal policing as yet, so you can call yourself what you like in theory????

Look at the quality out there now on a whole. This isn’t the time served guys that have caused this. This is partial training, weakened structures, money first and foremost, look after number one....well it isn’t working is it....the old way, was the right way! And we can see that now..Passion pride and quality is being replaced by, greed, speed and quantity

So, in my perfect world..... (And this world did exist you know ;0)
If you are a time served joiner, kitchen fitting should be your territory
If you are a time served plumber, fitting bathrooms suites should be your territory..
If you are a tiler, substrate preparation & tiling should be your territory..

If more people were fully trained in a trade, then they wouldn’t have to multi skill? And don’t tell me it can’t be done because if you found the time to multi skill, you can find the time to finish off what’s missing on the tiling :0) no excuses ..Lol
Multi skill as often as not, is sometimes a way of compensating for the very fact that you are NOT fully competent in a trade. They piece the small things they know into an area of use.....now that’s intelligent!! Using what you have, not what you haven’t!! But hand on heart, here, be honest!! If you could do the trade in all its glory then you wouldn’t have to diversify. There would be too much to do without having to diversify.
As rob claims, he can’t cut off on holiday, why, because he does everything.....If he concentrated on decorating, trained some good guys in that trade, then he could go away safe in the knowledge that his standards are being met by conscientious skilled tradesman. He could do his reproduction work, faux etc, he could do commercial work, interior design decor. He could train people, as it stands, If rob wants to create a protégé, he'd have to possess the same multitude of skills that he has and that’s taken 15 years and its very counterproductive in the long term.....efficiency is in simplicity.

Great example to finish on........Gordon Ramsay...he’s a chef...he has many restaurants. Angela Hartnett, Mark Sargent, all run his eateries. do any of them, fit the kitchens they cook in, kill the food they cook, wash the pans, they've used, serve the food they've cooked, NO....they get trained people in to do that who are faster, better and more equipped.......................

Does the standard of Gordon’s food drop because Mark Sargent is doing the cooking, no, it’s identical because he served his time next to a top pro in 1 chosen profession/trade

Scottley & Rob, just to repeat what I said at the very beginning of this post.
You both have my fullest respect. I rate you both highly, you both have pride and passion there’s nothing in my post that should cause any offence to either of you......as Jay said, you have standards but not everybody is like you 2 and that’s the issue with muliti skilling and that’s the point I am making.....

Regards
Ed...................................

 

[Colour Republic]

I agree in theory although I really can't see it going that way again, believe me I’d love to see it go that way as I love buildings and it breaks my heart to see some of them modernised.

I've got the perfect example; take this job I’m on at the moment.

I haven't got a picture of the whole property as I only needed this corner for survey purposes, but is a 5 storey, double fronted, Victorian house



The house when built was one residence, which has now been cut up into 15 flats; the flat I’m renovating is contained entirely in the original principle room with original dimension of around D8m x W12m x H5m.

The flats of course are now owned by the great unwashed, who do not have the money needed for its upkeep.

As part of the renovations the new owner asked for the ceiling to be restored, The ceiling isn't in that bad of a state, in fact from 5m below it looks in fair nick but get closer and it needs some work, so to carry out the works on the section you can see in the picture below our price was £1,700 but when push comes to shove and the budget needed to be trimmed, what do you think came off?




In addition another area of the ceiling had water damage and was repaired some years ago, It had some water damage again which I re-did (picture shows work in progress) but look at what they did to it first time around, this ceiling is part of the original ceiling seen in the pictures above but has been removed of 90% of its detail, I wonder where the insurance money went???



There are houses like this all over Brighton and Hove, the following picture shows just one of the many cresents that were at one point all single houses, in the picture (only shows 1/3 of the square) maybe 3 are still one property and of those only 1 is in original condition.

In original condition these houses are in the £4million+ mark, these people have the money for their upkeep, the rest have to rip the ceilings down and replace with plasterboard, even though there are more propertys in Brighton like this than other areas, there just isn't the work required to keep you busy, if you want to do this sort of work full time you have to travel all over the UK.

You use Gordon Ramsey as an example but just like the homeowners, only a few have the funds to dine at such resurants on a regular basis, the rest have to use the hundreds of thousands of the resturants dotted around the contry who you can quite often tell when the normal chef has a day off. They might go to Gordons should they want a special treat, in the same way you get a customer that says to hell with the budget, I want the beautiful Victorian floor

Its supply and demand. Back when people had the money to pay a master craftsmen the resturants were only frequented by the select few, now the demand is for pizzarias. Same thing - building for the masses

I remember seeing a figure of around 60,000 tilers in the UK (don't know if this is true) could you hand on heart say there is the demand for 60,000 master tilers in the UK?

Supply and demand - sad state of affairs but true none the less

 

[Colour Republic]

But hand on heart, here, be honest!! If you could do the trade in all its glory then you wouldn’t have to diversify. There would be too much to do without having to diversify.
As rob claims, he can’t cut off on holiday, why, because he does everything.....If he concentrated on decorating, trained some good guys in that trade, then he could go away safe in the knowledge that his standards are being met by conscientious skilled tradesman. He could do his reproduction work, faux etc, he could do commercial work, interior design decor. He could train people, as it stands, If rob wants to create a protégé, he'd have to possess the same multitude of skills that he has and that’s taken 15 years and its very counterproductive in the long term.....efficiency is in simplicity.

Hand on heart I would do the same thing again, because I love building. I didn't set out to diversify just to keep me in work, I saw something, knew I could do better, so went for it. Job satisfaction.

I've trained guys before. Sadly my perfectionist nature coupled with my sometimes lack of patience makes me a very bad teacher. I look at something and more often than not know instantly the steps needed for the end result. It's not always just about teaching somebody how to do something, they have to understand why, and you have to re-train the way they think, which is a hell of a lot harder than teaching somebody to do it parrot fashion.

If I had the patience I'd love to teach but it's one of my downfalls, I expect people to get it straight away, but most of my knowledge is second nature and I very bad at explaining it, so as i say it makes me an extremely bad teacher



Good discussion by the way

 

[mikethetile]

im not really sure what this argument is but if ive got this right Ed is saying that skills are being eroded as tradesman are not fully learning their trade

its shocking that these ceilings are being allowed to fall into disrepair and will end up lost due to the lack of skill or funds to pay a specialist to come in and repair

in my own lifetime I have seen our building heritage destroyed

city and guilds/nvq3 plasterers are taught this skill but many dont practise it , at one time any qualified plasterer would come in and repair this work at a rate the same as their dayrate for other work, the job taking longer would cost more than a standard ceiling but not considerably more

any tradesman not fully qualified but learning through experiance would be classed as a journeyman and would demand a lower rate, this would be their trade and they would reach an extremely high standard, work efficiantly and be knowledgable about every aspect of that trade

anyone having work done would not dream of employing anyone that wasnt in their particular trade

the cscs scheme is the governments attempt to keep the tradesmen and clients safe from the unskilled or semi skilled who at present can describe themselves as they see fit
the cscs system or licencing is going to be rolled out across the domestic market to protect the consumer

its up to everyone who is working without qualification to get assessed and registered in their trade now

the way jobs are run will change with trades coming on and off jobs as they used to

and the Robs of this world will manage the job for the customer

those that are genuine multi trades will have to do as I do and carry multiple cards to cover each trade they work in

there will be no multi trade card and each card will only carry one trade

 

[Aston]

correct mike,
thats exactly what i'm getting at.... i'll do my thing and let others do their thing, that way everybodies happy and we all get to eat if you excuse the restaurant theme pun

anyway, specialised training is the key no matter who you are or where you are .......

thats it from me, even if i wanted to i couldnt add any more ....lol ;0)

 

[Colour Republic]

im not really sure what this argument is but if ive got this right Ed is saying that skills are being eroded as tradesman are not fully learning their trade

I'm not sure it was an argument, and I would agree entirely that skills are being eroded, but I don't think that's down to the tradesmen I think that’s down to the demand for such skills, my specialist skills have been gained as and when I have had the opportunity to undertake such work which has been spread out over many years not day in day out.

I not sure you were referring to that ceiling in particular but the charges for doing it were not bumped up because of the type of work, it was priced up on the amount of time it takes because of the detailing and getting the scaffolding set up, we weren't even charging an inflated rate for taking mouldings of a section of cornice that needed repairing. I think any decent decorator should be able to restore that ceiling. I might charge higher rates for some of the specialist work we undertake but that is because the risks are higher.

I'm not arrogant enough to say I’m right and you’re wrong it's just my personal views.

No arguments from me just opinions and discussion

 

[mikethetile]

Hi Rob

I was using the word argument in its proper sense meaning debate and exchange of ideas I didnt mean it as its often misused these days as meaning people falling out

as a multi I can see both sides to this and im also old enough to remember how it used to be

I agree with you that its the market that has driven this change not the tradesman

as you know being a genuine multi comes at a price, investment in tools is only the start, theres the commitment and time put into learning each trade that you cant put a price on

I think you have to be a certain kind of person to succeed at this,almost obsessive about detail and finish, the prep, site organisation and cleanliness

its hard for other people to live and work with perfectionists on a mission with something that even though you have taken ownership of it for now will be handed back to its rightfull owner

the costs in my family life were high and ive learnt to switch off when needed

says the man who is embarking on a carbon copy of my old business:lol:

I think theres a more trade obsessives on this site than you will normally find in one place, most on here are passionate about their trade

unfortunatly thats not reflected in the building trades generally where in a lot of cases its not even near enough is good enough, its a case of my work is simply not good enough and I dont care

this upsets me and Ed doesnt like to see it either

the only way to change this is a return to the old system where tradesmen work in their own trade and realise their full potential

this exludes the pernikity obsessives like you Rob that wont declare the job fit for handover untill its as perfect as it can be

and then you will still be looking for faults to correct, I know Ive been there

 

[Polishtradesman]

I think plumbing is much easier then tiling. All you need is proper tools. I do plumbing in bathrooms which i tile. Copper is very easy to do. Polieturan (i dont know how you call this white pipes in UK) is easier then copper. Good money to earn. Dont be pessimist and try. You need invest some money to buy good tools.

 

[Scott]

Wow that took some reading guys!

 

[albyshellshear]

Wow that took some reading guys!

Answer the post in polish that would take some writing :lol:

 

[Polishtradesman]

Answer the post in polish that would take some writing :lol:

:lol::lol:

 

[davy_G]

Good discussion chaps. Im no plumber, dont really want to be. I remove rads white goods and sanitary ware, will fix them again if needed. But thats it, im insured for that and more but i make more money tiling.
Plus my van isnt big enough to carry plumbers gear as well...Mmmm new van?

 

[hants tiler]

like afew of the other guys i got fed up with plumbers and chippys not doing the work properly before i came in to tile.i have been tiling for 24 yrs and wanted to be able to do more.About 5 yrs ago customers started to ask if i could do the complete install, i had a carpenter friend who is very competent in several trades including plumbing. i strarted off learning from him and now i offer the complete job from start to finish. like some of the other guys i dont touch gas or electrics i use qualified mates to do these parts of the job.If i am unsure of anything in terms of standards and practices i have bought several books, plus a plumber friend is ready to answer ant tough questions. The plumbers merchant where i have my account is also v helpful . I love ripping the job out and relish the challenge and as you progress certain aspects get easier.The big plus is knowing you did a complete job v satisfying. Like the other guy said as long as you have the relevant insurance take your time ,check your work and practice
then you should be fine. I have applied to do a plumbing nvq at a local college to get some proper qualifications behind me. Give it a go ,if you have a plumber as a mate ask him if you can help out as a way to build your skill and knowledge base
good luck
:hurray: hants tiler

 

[Mouldy]

As above I also offer the complete job, throw me in, shut the door and let me leave when its done! City and guilds qualified plumber and bricklayer, (although dont use the latter much nowadays!). Do plastering and artexing, (try to avoid the latter), coving, tiling and decorating. Have a ticket for unvented cylinders and am moving in the direction of solar hot water, (sorta runs hand in hand with bathrooms!!).

As has also been said the size of the van reflects all the tools that have to be carried! LWB Hi-top transit is only jsut big enough!!!