Advice needed - poor tiling job, dot and dab not to BS5385

[Soso]

We recently had a bathroom fitting in who said he used dot and dab to fix tiles to the wall and in the shower areas and also stated that any gaps behind tiles e.g. Mosaics would get filled in by grout so it would be fine. We can however hear what we think are some voids behind the large format tiles.

We have challenged him with info from tile association and what we know of British standards but he has now said (to counter our argument against dot and dab) he "back buttered" and this is recommended. He also stated "the skill of the installer is paramount".

We also challenged him and said that the shower area should have been waterproofed. He said it was unnecessary and now is saying water resistant adhesive and grout is enough. We don't believe this is the case according to tile association but don't know re British standards. Also is a domestic shower classed as a "wet area"?

He also said the British standards can't take into account "differing situations that may be encountered in different properties " but surely a standard house and bathroom installation shouldn't cause so many issues and should still be covered by what is stipulated in Brit standards ?

Lastly he has said there is no excess lippage as per bsi recommendations. Does anyone know the recommendations and how we can check them? We know there are some significant dips in the mosaic especially at the edges next to large format tiles...

Any advice greatly received. The tiler has accused us of picking out our own grout and has lied throughout our comms with him. It's heading towards full on dispute :-(

 

[Andy Allen]

Dot and dab method of tiling is wrong especially if there are voids behind the tiles....
There's no excuse for it and it should be all replaced and done properly.

 

[Tile Shop]

We recently had a bathroom fitting in who said he used dot and dab to fix tiles to the wall and in the shower areas and also stated that any gaps behind tiles e.g. Mosaics would get filled in by grout so it would be fine. We can however hear what we think are some voids behind the large format tiles.

We have challenged him with info from tile association and what we know of British standards but he has now said (to counter our argument against dot and dab) he "back buttered" and this is recommended. He also stated "the skill of the installer is paramount".

We also challenged him and said that the shower area should have been waterproofed. He said it was unnecessary and now is saying water resistant adhesive and grout is enough. We don't believe this is the case according to tile association but don't know re British standards. Also is a domestic shower classed as a "wet area"?

He also said the British standards can't take into account "differing situations that may be encountered in different properties " but surely a standard house and bathroom installation shouldn't cause so many issues and should still be covered by what is stipulated in Brit standards ?

Lastly he has said there is no excess lippage as per bsi recommendations. Does anyone know the recommendations and how we can check them? We know there are some significant dips in the mosaic especially at the edges next to large format tiles...

Any advice greatly received. The tiler has accused us of picking out our own grout and has lied throughout our comms with him. It's heading towards full on dispute :-(

Wow.... sounds like he is proper on the defensive.....

As far as I am aware, British Standards don't use exact words saying that spot fixing or dottin' and dabbin' is wrong. However it does say that the tiler should achieve as close to full coverage as possible, which most spot fixing will not do, whatever anyone says.

If he is back buttering and applying more spots of adhesive on top, he is wasting his time as most of the back spread of adhesive is now elevated from making contact with the substrate and still leaving voids.

A "wet area" is anywhere of regular/intermittent contact with water or steam. Adhesive and grout being water resistant is fine providing the coverage is solid (no voids) and compressed sufficiently when fixing as this will drastically reduce the flow of water from making contact with the substrate in such quantities that would potentially cause a problem. Again, spot fixing allows free movement of water which can saturate all contacting adhesive and reducing the already limited bond strength.

Lippage is specific in BS. no more than 1mm on joints less than 6mm, 2mm allowance on joints 6mm and over. This is dependant on the tile so if it is rustic or bowed it may not be possible and BS would still allow it. If the tile however is perfectly flat with minimal to no surface texture, he has no excuse. Fixing thinner mosaics against thicker tiles is difficult, but not impossible if he knows what he is doing. There are ways of leaving a solid coverage and small notches for the mosaic to press into. But I have never had to do it so would be better if someone with more experience can advise you better on that one.

Alot of "old school" tilers say that tiles need spot fixing to allow better adjustment over uneven surfaces. Good modern tilers will spread the adhesive on the wall and back spread the tile with a variety of different trowels (trial and error) to get the correct level AND full coverage.

 

[Soso]

 

[Soso]

Some examples above. Lippage between mosaic edge and large tile - can see trough.

 

[Soso]

Wow.... sounds like he is proper on the defensive.....

As far as I am aware, British Standards don't use exact words saying that spot fixing or dottin' and dabbin' is wrong. However it does say that the tiler should achieve as close to full coverage as possible, which most spot fixing will not do, whatever anyone says.

If he is back buttering and applying more spots of adhesive on top, he is wasting his time as most of the back spread of adhesive is now elevated from making contact with the substrate and still leaving voids.

A "wet area" is anywhere of regular/intermittent contact with water or steam. Adhesive and grout being water resistant is fine providing the coverage is solid (no voids) and compressed sufficiently when fixing as this will drastically reduce the flow of water from making contact with the substrate in such quantities that would potentially cause a problem. Again, spot fixing allows free movement of water which can saturate all contacting adhesive and reducing the already limited bond strength.

Lippage is specific in BS. no more than 1mm on joints less than 6mm, 2mm allowance on joints 6mm and over. This is dependant on the tile so if it is rustic or bowed it may not be possible and BS would still allow it. If the tile however is perfectly flat with minimal to no surface texture, he has no excuse. Fixing thinner mosaics against thicker tiles is difficult, but not impossible if he knows what he is doing. There are ways of leaving a solid coverage and small notches for the mosaic to press into. But I have never had to do it so would be better if someone with more experience can advise you better on that one.

Alot of "old school" tilers say that tiles need spot fixing to allow better adjustment over uneven surfaces. Good modern tilers will spread the adhesive on the wall and back spread the tile with a variety of different trowels (trial and error) to get the correct level AND full coverage.

He has definitely gone off and read some of the British standards to try and mitigate anything we might say is wrong but looks like he has misquoted some of it. Does the British standard say anything about it being essential to waterproof regardless of water resistant grout and adhesive being used ? This is what the tile association told us anyway.

 

[Andy Allen]

Waterproofing or tanking a shower area is not a regulatory practice as it is in other countries, it is always recommended but at the tilers / customers discretion..

 

[Tile Shop]

BS5385 part 4:2015:

7.2.3 Installations not immersed but subject to occasional wetting.
In installations where contact with water is only intermittent, and the installation has had the opportunity to dry out between periods of use, e.g. domestic (not power) showers, 7.2.1 and the following should apply: (have checked 7.2.1 and all it says relating to your query may be not to use plaster or gypsum based materials in wet areas as they are unstable when wet or when combined with cement based materials).

a) The background should preferably be cement and sand rendering or dense concrete. Sheets and boards should not be used unless they are dimensionally stable in changing moisture conditions. Tiles should be solidly bedded in water resistant adhesive.

b) The joints between the tiles should be water-resistant but additional protection can be obtained by using an impervious grout.

c) The gaps between wall and shower tray/bath should be sealed, particularly where the installation is located on a suspended floor.

NOTE 1, for water sensitive backgrounds e.g. gypsum plaster, additional protection in the form of a waterproofing tanking system may be considered.

NOTE 2, The use of impervious grouts and adhesives is no substitute for a tanked installation.

More to follow when I get a bit more time.... 7.2.4 which is for wetrooms and domestic power showers. or you can have a browse yourself:
British Standards no longer available at Newcastle Library.... But here's another way. - https://www.tilersforums.com/threads/british-standards-no-longer-available-at-newcastle-library-but-heres-another-way.83947/

 

[MTiler]

The Standards regarding Tanking in domestic situations was changed recently.

 

[Tile Shop]

The Standards regarding Tanking in domestic situations was changed recently.

Someone mentioned that to me recently but haven't been able to find any new info on it. Do you know which BS number it has been made to?

 

[Tile Shop]

Ahhhhh...... found it. Or at least part of it. In the June update of BS5385 Part 1.... but now they should amend part 4 to suite!

6.1.1.3 Tanking
In Wet areas, e.g. showers, wet rooms and steam rooms, substrates should be protected with a suitable proprietary tanking membrane system.

The weight capacity of the tanking system should be capable of carrying the load of the tiles and adhesive. If mechanical fixings are to be used the membrane manufacturer should be consulted.

Where the substrate is to be protected with a tanking membrane the weight restrictions of the installation might be reduced therefore the membrane manufacturer should be consulted.

NOTE This can be a proprietary sheet membrane or a liquid applied water impermeable product.

 

[Tile Shop]

One other amendment made is in 7.2.1.6 Tile Joints (quite why it was put in here I don't know.... think they messed up and it should have gone in 7.2.1.5.......... damn I'm such a geek!)

"Tiles should never be fixed with butt-joints, as an adequate width of joint is necessary for the relief of local stress.

Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique."

BOOM!

 

[One Day]

Every week that goes by, I get to see more and more failed jobs.
It is well past time that this industry got some kind of proper regulation.
Tiling isn't fitting 6x6 bumpy whites any more.

 

[Soso]

Ahhhhh...... found it. Or at least part of it. In the June update of BS5385 Part 1.... but now they should amend part 4 to suite!

6.1.1.3 Tanking
In Wet areas, e.g. showers, wet rooms and steam rooms, substrates should be protected with a suitable proprietary tanking membrane system.

The weight capacity of the tanking system should be capable of carrying the load of the tiles and adhesive. If mechanical fixings are to be used the membrane manufacturer should be consulted.

Where the substrate is to be protected with a tanking membrane the weight restrictions of the installation might be reduced therefore the membrane manufacturer should be consulted.

NOTE This can be a proprietary sheet membrane or a liquid applied water impermeable product.

oh my gosh, that is perfect ! Thank you so so much. He fitted our bathroom in May 2018 but I'm sure the new standard should still apply given its what the tile association said too before ?

 

[Soso]

One other amendment made is in 7.2.1.6 Tile Joints (quite why it was put in here I don't know.... think they messed up and it should have gone in 7.2.1.5.......... damn I'm such a geek!)

"Tiles should never be fixed with butt-joints, as an adequate width of joint is necessary for the relief of local stress.

Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique."

BOOM!

I guess this hits on two counts. Some of the mosaics are right next to each other without any room for grout as he hasn't spaced some properly and also dot and dab expressly mentioned is fantastic !

 

[Soso]

BS5385 part 4:2015:

7.2.3 Installations not immersed but subject to occasional wetting.
In installations where contact with water is only intermittent, and the installation has had the opportunity to dry out between periods of use, e.g. domestic (not power) showers, 7.2.1 and the following should apply: (have checked 7.2.1 and all it says relating to your query may be not to use plaster or gypsum based materials in wet areas as they are unstable when wet or when combined with cement based materials).

a) The background should preferably be cement and sand rendering or dense concrete. Sheets and boards should not be used unless they are dimensionally stable in changing moisture conditions. Tiles should be solidly bedded in water resistant adhesive.

b) The joints between the tiles should be water-resistant but additional protection can be obtained by using an impervious grout.

c) The gaps between wall and shower tray/bath should be sealed, particularly where the installation is located on a suspended floor.

NOTE 1, for water sensitive backgrounds e.g. gypsum plaster, additional protection in the form of a waterproofing tanking system may be considered.

NOTE 2, The use of impervious grouts and adhesives is no substitute for a tanked installation.

More to follow when I get a bit more time.... 7.2.4 which is for wetrooms and domestic power showers. or you can have a browse yourself:
British Standards no longer available at Newcastle Library.... But here's another way. - https://www.tilersforums.com/threads/british-standards-no-longer-available-at-newcastle-library-but-heres-another-way.83947/

In reference to point a above, he used a standard plaster board on one side of the shower and on the rest he installed ceramic tiles and mosaics over the top of very old previous tiling job. And by the window, we don't believe he prepared the walls again so not sure what he did there. Yes i think i could definitely say plaster board is not suitable in that area ?

 

[Tile Shop]

oh my gosh, that is perfect ! Thank you so so much. He fitted our bathroom in May 2018 but I'm sure the new standard should still apply given its what the tile association said too before ?

Hard to say. You will probably need to speak to the TTA on that one. not sure how much clout it would give if it wasn't in writing before they were installed. But it is good practice and many pro tilers will not tile a shower without it.

 

[Tile Shop]

I guess this hits on two counts. Some of the mosaics are right next to each other without any room for grout as he hasn't spaced some properly and also dot and dab expressly mentioned is fantastic !

Yes I guess it will but the amount of stress within a couple of line of mosaic would not have an impact. Its just a lack of attention to detail on the tilers part. The dot and dab is a good change. Before they only recommended methods to use with no mention of what methods not to use.

 

[Tile Shop]

In reference to point a above, he used a standard plaster board on one side of the shower and on the rest he installed ceramic tiles and mosaics over the top of very old previous tiling job. And by the window, we don't believe he prepared the walls again so not sure what he did there. Yes i think i could definitely say plaster board is not suitable in that area ?

Without tanking, no it isn't. As for tiling on tile.... do you know what surface the old tiles were installed onto and how thick they were?

 

[Soso]

Without tanking, no it isn't. As for tiling on tile.... do you know what surface the old tiles were installed onto and how thick they were?

I've just remembered we have the same old tiles in another bathroom. They look like they are around 5mm or 4mm depth. The surface underneath the old tiles was just a normal wall i believe though . On the back side of the shower area away from the new shower head, they ripped out the other shower unit which left a hole in the wall. We believe, from what we saw, that they put small offcuts of plasterboard into some parts of that hole ( not all ) and they seemed to just dump mortar/adhesive in the hole so we have no idea how they did this properly. I think the holes are probably still there behind the mortar - we saw some internal insulation in the hole too. This is a part of the shower that would be mostly away from significant water fall although it would still get some.

 

[Soso]

I got this from the FAQ on the tile association ( they have in the last week removed the FAQ answers though :-( But they seem to correspond to part 4 BSI - even though i didn't see word Essential in there ? )

"Choosing shower or wetroom tiles

British Standard BS5385 is the Code of Practice for fixing wall and floor tiles. Part 4 of the Standard offers advice on fixing tiles in particular situations including wet areas such as in showers.

First check with your tile supplier that the tile is suitable for use in a shower and/or bathroom. Part 4 of British Standard BS538S, the Code of Practice for fixing wall and floor tiles offers advice on fixing tiles in particular situations including wet areas such as in showers. BS5385 states It is essential to tile onto an already water resistant background. Sand/cement render, dense concrete or water resistant tile backer board are ideal backgrounds. Plaster, plasterboard, timber and timber-based products such as MDF or plywood are absorbent and should be made waterproof by the use of a waterproofing or tanking system.

Note the word "essential" in the above paragraph. Failure to do this is the most common cause of tiling failures in domestic bathrooms. Tiling onto non water- resistant backgrounds is therefore in breach of the British Standard BS5385

An alternative to plasterboard or timber based products is tile backerboard which is an inert water resistant product.

Waterproofing systems can be painted on to or applied to an absorbent background. Most tile adhesive producers have a range of waterproofing systems that coordinate with the tile adhesives and grouts in their product ranges.

The tile adhesive should be a water resistant polymer enhanced adhesive meeting the requirements of BS EN 12004 for a D2 dispersion adhesive or C1 or C2 for a cementitious adhesives and the tile grout should be water resistant, meeting the requirements of BS EN 13888.

Tiles should be fixed using the solid bed method, i.e. ensuring that there are no voids beneath the tiles. The joints between the tiles should be filled using a water resistant grout.

Special attention should be paid to sealing the gaps between the base of the tiling and where the tiling joins the base of shower units or bath and penetrations in the tiling (e.g. shower fittings), using a good quality antifungicidal silicon sealant or a proprietary manufactured sealing strip specially designed for the purpose.

The shower should not be put into use until it has cured and is adequately dry

 

[Andy Allen]

The Standards regarding Tanking in domestic situations was changed recently.

In what way ??
I tiled a new house on site last week that had zero tanking.....big house builder too...

 

[One Day]

Look, I think you're expecting too much from BS5385. It isn't going to solve your problem here.
You really need to refer to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 which basically states that you are entitled to "reasonable care and skill".
That is a HUGE get out clause for idiot tilers.
BS5385 can be useful in court if you go that far, but it is only guidance.
Until the toothless and impotent Tile Association step up and press for regulation of our industry - specifically in the preparation and tiling of wet areas, this is going to happen more and more and more...

(and membership of the Tile Association counts for not a lot in my experience. It should - but it doesn't sadly)

 

[Soso]

Look, I think you're expecting too much from BS5385. It isn't going to solve your problem here.
You really need to refer to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 which basically states that you are entitled to "reasonable care and skill".
That is a HUGE get out clause for idiot tilers.
BS5385 can be useful in court if you go that far, but it is only guidance.
Until the toothless and impotent Tile Association step up and press for regulation of our industry - specifically in the preparation and tiling of wet areas, this is going to happen more and more and more...

(and membership of the Tile Association counts for not a lot in my experience. It should - but it doesn't sadly)

Yeah, it's not a great situation. We issued a consumer protection act letter to them and they came back disputing most of what we said was wrong which is the bulk of what I wrote in my original post plus loads of other stuff.

It is slowly looking likely to go to court but want to get my facts straight before it gets that far.

He has lied considerably on a number of counts but as is always the case, I have to prove it :-(

 

[jimthetiler]

That has to be the worst tiling work by a tiler I have seen for a long time.

 

[Soso]

That has to be the worst tiling work by a tiler I have seen for a long time.

Thanks for that, good to have someone else state this too. It's quite astounding that in his latest correspondence he thinks there is nothing wrong with it

 

[jimthetiler]

actually he is not a tiler that is evident on the grout finnish alone.Does all the grout look like that or is it just in one place.

 

[Soso]

actually he is not a tiler that is evident on the grout finnish alone.Does all the grout look like that or is it just in one place.

There are some places where it seems to be ok but a lot of places throughout that look like those pictures - A mixture i guess. Where he removed one tile that he hadn't cut properly, he replaced it and used silicon instead of grout. I haven't even posted pictures of the window areas where there are chips in the tiles where he has had to cut the tiles. If we walked in quickly, you might not see the big issues but as soon as you stop a minute to look around you can see it all clearly.

 

[Soso]

actually he is not a tiler that is evident on the grout finnish alone.Does all the grout look like that or is it just in one place.

And of course he has dot and dabbed throughout but is now denying this and saying he "back buttered" instead which we know he didn't.

 

[Dumbo]

And of course he has dot and dabbed throughout but is now denying this and saying he "back buttered" instead which we know he didn't.

If you have any spare tiles remove one tile to prove it . I watched that rogue traders guy core drill a drive then get the contractor back . When the contractor arrived he said if you cut that drive in half you would this and this . Rogue trader guy said "funny you should say that " and it went from there .