Pva Versus Primers | Always Use A Primer When Tiling, And Not Pva

[The D]

as above you can use an abrasive pad to losen.

 

[DHTiling]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Hi All,
I am feeling ever so slightly gutted at the moment.
Just joined your forum and just read this thread. (God do I wish I had fund this 3 weeks ago).
Guess what?
Just spent the last 3 weekends filling and preping my bathroom walls (4) ready for tiling.
Finishing it off with 2x coats of 5:1.... PVA!
The prospect of tiles falling from walls in the not to distant future is not a vision I wish to contemplate.

Anyone got any suggestions on the best way to resolve this problem?

And please don't ask why I did this. It was on advice from a friend of a friend of a work friend (who I have subsequently just found out..... is a plasterer!).

Many thanks
Victor
(head in hands)

Yes Plasterers use PVA, but Tilers do it properly.. :lol:.. we use Acrylic or SBR primers.. never PVA.. 🙂

 

[victic]

Thanks for the advice.
To be honest the prospect of trying to get this PVA off is not one I particularly relish.
Could I get away with covering with a thin skim of plaster and then use a primer?

 

[andy8758]

Dont beat yourself up too much victic - I found this "Expert" on the internet telling prospective floor tilers it was essential to put PVA on ply before tiling.......... Yes its a Tommy's Trade Secret (lol)

[DLMURL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiFErZal85w&feature=g-all-u"]Tommy's Trade Secrets - How To Tile A Floor - YouTube[/DLMURL]

 

[White Room]

That looks like chipboard...:yikes:

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

I just put a comment on there, don't think they will allow it though:mad2:.

 

[Discount Tile Supplies]

tilersforums.com recommends Mapei Adhesive, Grouts, Primers and Silicon for use with all wall and floor tilers.

See [DLMURL]http://www.Mapei.co.uk[/DLMURL] for more information.

MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT P.V.A. IS OK AS A PRIMER ON WALLS AND FLOORS SO I THOUGHT THAT I WOULD LET YOU SEE THIS " LINK " AND HOPEFULLY IT WILL ENLIGHTEN SOME NEWCOMERS OR EVEN EXPERIANCED TILERS AS WHY NOT TO PRIME SUBSTRATES WITH P.V.A. INSTEAD OF PRIMERS.........DAVE.....


P.S. I always prime with primers and this will show you why!!!!!!!

PVA - Why you shouldn't use it as a tiling primer
​

I have to give guarantees for my work (many of these projects are commercial such as sports centre showers and changing rooms). For me to be able to give guarantees I need to follow strictly the specification of the adhesive manufacturers. ​

Ardex, BAL and Nicobond are the three suppliers I use most. Their products are similar in many respects, sometimes one will make products the other don't, and I also find some of there products more useful in different applications. All three of them have one thing in common, they all specify that under no circumstances may PVA be used before using any of their adhesives. If you do all guarantees are void. ​

OK why then? Well I asked this question to Ardex when I once had problem, I'd tiled a bathroom that had been constructed in 25mm Marine ply. Thinking he was doing the right thing, the builder got his guys to seal the ply with unibond PVA...I wasn't aware of this. ​

I tiled it and 6 months later every single tile fell off the ply, the adhesive solidly stuck to the tile but came clean a whistle off the ply. ​

We had Ardex Technical down to the site to compile a report, the basis of which was it's the PVA that causes the problem. ​

When you treat a surface with PVA it partly soaks in and partly sits on the surface of the substrate much in the same way as wallpaper paste. ​

If PVA gets wet it becomes slightly live again, it doesn't completely return to it's liquid state but it becomes sticky. ​

When you spread tile adhesive onto the wall, the water in the adhesive makes the PVA live and stops the adhesive from penetrating the substrate and providing a mechanical grip. Basically your tiles, grout and adhesive are being held to the wall by a thin layer of PVA. ​

Most tile adhesive works by crystallising when it sets (some are slightly different such as epoxy based ones) but generally they all work the same way. Once the adhesive starts to set crystals from and expand into any imperfections in the substrate surface (at a microscopic level) to create a grip. PVA stops this process by creating a barrier between the substrate and the tile adhesive. ​

Ok so what's the difference between this and Ardex or BAL primer, well basically the tile manufacturers primers soak right in to the substrate and stop the sponge like "draw "effect but they don't coat the surface in any way, they are an impregnator as opposed to a barrier. They also stop a chemical reaction occurring between the cement based adhesive and a plaster substrate, a known problem know as "Ettringite failure" ​

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.​

So only use PVA before tiling if the adhesive manufacturer specifies it in the instructions.​

Good point Dave

I have told old and new tiles for months and months to not use PVA and still they do. They try and make you look silly when you explain why not.

And you know what the answer i get? " I HAVENT HAD A PROBLEM YET, been using it for years" and i shake my head and say YET.

Oh well i will keep trying to spread the word and upsetting tillers when i tell them not to use PVA. Getting fed up of it now!, telling tilers to join TF to see for their selves.

 

[Discount Tile Supplies]

Oh do you mind if i print this off Dave and put it in front of the primers in my shops?

 

[DHTiling]

Oh do you mind if i print this off Dave and put it in front of the primers in my shops?

Go for it , anything to stop idiots using pva

 

[paul dignam]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

bal apd the best

 

[afright]

SBR All the way used bal bond for over forty years use it on walls and floors never had a problem

 

[digbysdad]

THIS SOUNDS LIKE SOME OF MY PROBLEM. i KNOW THEY USED PVA ON THE CALCIUM SULPHATE FLOOR. SO WHAT TO DO. DO YOU THINK WIRE BRUSHING ALL 50 SQ MTR AND PRIMING IT WOULD BE THE WAY TO GO?

 

[afright]

In the early 70s Bal primer came in a one gallon tin and it had a reddish tint so you could see where you primed ,it had a few drawbacks it was highly flammable

(as one of the tiler,s I work with found out while using the primer the boiler came on and the whole kitchen had a flash over) and the other was any dropped on a plastic bath stained it I was so glad when they took it of the market.

 

[Concrete guy]

PVA - Why you shouldn't use it as a tiling primer
​

I have to give guarantees for my work (many of these projects are commercial such as sports centre showers and changing rooms). For me to be able to give guarantees I need to follow strictly the specification of the adhesive manufacturers. ​

Ardex, BAL and Nicobond are the three suppliers I use most. Their products are similar in many respects, sometimes one will make products the other don't, and I also find some of there products more useful in different applications. All three of them have one thing in common, they all specify that under no circumstances may PVA be used before using any of their adhesives. If you do all guarantees are void. ​

OK why then? Well I asked this question to Ardex when I once had problem, I'd tiled a bathroom that had been constructed in 25mm Marine ply. Thinking he was doing the right thing, the builder got his guys to seal the ply with unibond PVA...I wasn't aware of this. ​

I tiled it and 6 months later every single tile fell off the ply, the adhesive solidly stuck to the tile but came clean a whistle off the ply. ​

We had Ardex Technical down to the site to compile a report, the basis of which was it's the PVA that causes the problem. ​

When you treat a surface with PVA it partly soaks in and partly sits on the surface of the substrate much in the same way as wallpaper paste. ​

If PVA gets wet it becomes slightly live again, it doesn't completely return to it's liquid state but it becomes sticky. ​

When you spread tile adhesive onto the wall, the water in the adhesive makes the PVA live and stops the adhesive from penetrating the substrate and providing a mechanical grip. Basically your tiles, grout and adhesive are being held to the wall by a thin layer of PVA. ​

Most tile adhesive works by crystallising when it sets (some are slightly different such as epoxy based ones) but generally they all work the same way. Once the adhesive starts to set crystals from and expand into any imperfections in the substrate surface (at a microscopic level) to create a grip. PVA stops this process by creating a barrier between the substrate and the tile adhesive. ​

Ok so what's the difference between this and Ardex or BAL primer, well basically the tile manufacturers primers soak right in to the substrate and stop the sponge like "draw "effect but they don't coat the surface in any way, they are an impregnator as opposed to a barrier. They also stop a chemical reaction occurring between the cement based adhesive and a plaster substrate, a known problem know as "Ettringite failure" ​

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.​

So only use PVA before tiling if the adhesive manufacturer specifies it in the instructions.​

I wrote this article quite a few years ago in a previous business life. It's funny seeing it still in use today.

At the time I took a lot of flak for it, I even had PHD Chemist take me to task and tell me it was a load of hogwash despite the adhesive manufacturers spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on research and developing suitable primers and adhesives.

I'm glad it stood the test of time though and is still relevant today.

 

[DHTiling]

There used to be a link to your site as well but over the years i cannot remember where it went lol lol.. but deffo served a lot of peeps well by reading this and not using pva.

 

[Concrete guy]

There used to be a link to your site as well but over the years i cannot remember where it went lol lol.. but deffo served a lot of peeps well by reading this and not using pva.

I'm no longer tiling, my knees and back couldn't cope with it any longer!

My business now would conflict with one of your forum sponsors so it's not really appropriate to link any longer.

It is good to know people made (and are still making) use of it.

 

[bramleyman]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

enjoyed this thread and feel newly educated. can someone please tell me what SBR stands for so i can die a happy man?
regards Alf

 

[White Room]

Styrene Butadiene Rubber....

 

[robbieraven]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Victor, many years ago before I knew what I was doing I did exactly what you did. My tiles are still on in a shower cubical in my own house, 6 years on. But like you when I first found out I went numb, have never done it again, listen to the advice of the guys and do it properly, you'll sleep better at night 🙂

 

[High Peak Tiling]

Another brilliant post Dave,

 

[Sean SML Tiling]

What about sbr bond is this classed as pva or more of a primer?

 

[DHTiling]

SBR is not PVA 🙂 and yes ok as a primer.

 

[Sean SML Tiling]

So is it ok to use sbr as an additive or would u recommend using webber primer if using webber addy?

 

[DHTiling]

Additive..? .. Weber supply additives for the adhesives and one for the grouts.. what are you trying to achieve..?

 

[Sean SML Tiling]

Nothing I was just curious. I only use webber primers not cheap stuff.

 

[DHTiling]

PR360 is a good primer..

 

[Mr T]

Ive known for a while now not to use p.v.a as a primer but never actually knew why.... Great bit of info there thanks matey

 

[Lee@emctiles]

P.V.A. Versus Primers

Ive known for a while now not to use p.v.a as a primer but never actually knew why.... Great bit of info there thanks matey

Tbh we had a trade day last year with Weber and they demo'd this......you could see the penny drop in some of the "fixers" eyes....

its all about education.......think this is why I believe that tilers should use the forums to get as much information as possible.

 

[Mr T]

yes mate I know one way or another even when I know most about tiling this site will still be handy in many ways.

 

[White Room]

I spoke to a tiler of 30 years plus and he still uses pva....:ban:

 

[TJ Smiler]

Oh the arguements i have had (especially with no-it-all-builders) about the use of PVA!! Trouble is a lot of these DIY programmes still advise the use of PVA as a sealer.