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Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Very good dh, hopefully people will read and learn, and not read and weep when they have used pva and all the tiles fall off.
 

Dave

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MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT P.V.A. IS OK AS A PRIMER ON WALLS AND FLOORS SO I THOUGHT THAT I WOULD LET YOU SEE THIS " LINK " AND HOPEFULLY IT WILL ENLIGHTEN SOME NEWCOMERS OR EVEN EXPERIANCED TILERS AS WHY NOT TO PRIME SUBSTRATES WITH P.V.A. INSTEAD OF PRIMERS.........DAVE.....


P.S. I always prime with primers and this will show you why!!!!!!!


PVA - Why you shouldn't use it as a tile primer

I have to give guarantees for my work (many of these projects are commercial such as sports centre showers and changing rooms). For me to be able to give guarantees I need to follow strictly the specification of the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ manufacturers.

Ardex, BAL and Nicobond are the three suppliers I use most. Their products are similar in many respects, sometimes one will make products the other don't, and I also find some of there products more useful in different applications. All three of them have one thing in common, they all specify that under no circumstances may PVA be used before using any of their adhesives. If you do all guarantees are void.

OK why then? Well I asked this question to Ardex when I once had problem, I'd tiled a bathroom that had been constructed in 25mm Marine ply. Thinking he was doing the right thing, the builder got his guys to seal the ply with unibond PVA...I wasn't aware of this.

I tiled it and 6 months later every single tile fell off the ply, the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ solidly stuck to the tile but came clean a whistle off the ply.

We had Ardex Technical down to the site to compile a report, the basis of which was it's the PVA that causes the problem.

When you treat a surface with PVA it partly soaks in and partly sits on the surface of the substrate much in the same way as wallpaper paste.

If PVA gets wet it becomes slightly live again, it doesn't completely return to it's liquid state but it becomes sticky.

When you spread tile https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ onto the wall, the water in the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ makes the PVA live and stops the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ from penetrating the substrate and providing a mechanical grip. Basically your tiles, grout and https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ are being held to the wall by a thin layer of PVA.

Most tile https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ works by crystallising when it sets (some are slightly different such as epoxy based ones) but generally they all work the same way. Once the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ starts to set crystals from and expand into any imperfections in the substrate surface (at a microscopic level) to create a grip. PVA stops this process by creating a barrier between the substrate and the tile https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/.

Ok so what's the difference between this and Ardex or BAL primer, well basically the tile manufacturers primers soak right in to the substrate and stop the sponge like "draw "effect but they don't coat the surface in any way, they are an impregnator as opposed to a barrier. They also stop a chemical reaction occurring between the cement based https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ and a plaster substrate, a known problem know as "Ettringite failure"

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.
So only use PVA before tile if the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ manufacturer specifies it in the instructions.

A while ago I wrote a post for another forum which explained the reasons behind not using PVA as a tile primer, it is posted below for your information, I've been asked to copy it to various other forums and thought it might be useful here also. I hope it is of some help.


Oh and if you do require a primer then use one suitable for the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ you are using, such as BAL APD or Ardion 51.

I'm a professional tile contractor, I now mainly specialise in natural products but over the years I've stuck up (or down) every type of tile there is.

I have to give guarantees for my work (many of these projects are commercial such as sports centre showers and changing rooms). For me to be able to give guarantees I need to follow strictly the specification of the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ manufacturers.

Ardex, BAL and Nicobond are the three suppliers I use most. Their products are similar in many respects, sometimes one will make products the other don't, and I also find some of there products more useful in different applications. All three of them have one thing in common, they all specifiy that under no circumstances may PVA be used before using any of their adhesives. If you do all guarantees are void.

OK why then? Well I asked this question to Ardex when I once had problem, I'd tiled a bathroom that had been constructed in 25mm Marine ply. Thinking he was doing the right thing, the builder got his guys to seal the ply with unibond PVA...I wasn't aware of this.

I tiled it and 6 months later every single tile fell off the ply, the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ solidly stuck to the tile but came clean a whistle off the ply.

We had Ardex Technical down to the site to compile a report, the basis of which was it's the PVA that causes the problem.

When you treat a surface with PVA it partly soaks in and parlty sits on the surface of the substrate much in the same way as wallpaper paste.

If PVA gets wet it becomes slightly live again, it doesn't completely return to it's liquid state but it becomes sticky.

When you spread tile https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ onto the wall, the water in the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ makes the PVA live and stops the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ from penetrating the substrate and providing a mechanical grip. Basically your tiles, grout and https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ are being held to the wall by a thin layer of PVA.

Most tile https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ works by crystalising when it sets (some are slightly different such as epoxy based ones) but generally they all work the same way. Once the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ starts to set crystals from and expand into any imperfections in the substrate surface (at a microscopic level) to create a grip. PVA stops this process by creating a barrier between the substrate and the tile https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/.

Ok so whats the difference between this and Ardex or BAL primer, well basically the tile manufacturers primers soak right in to the substrate and stop the sponge like "draw "effect but they don't coat the surface in any way, they are an impregnator as opposed to a barrier.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.
Bumping this thread for newcomers to read.
the original link is working anymore but there is loads of similar info all over the internet.
Hope this info helps.


 

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