Right or wrong.

[enduro]

I have been talking too another tiler near me and we were talking about work...He said he is so busy with private work, so i asked him his secret and this is what he said. When i price a job i do not bring up the subject of supplying materials, adhesive, grout, trim etc as these put a lot of money onto the job..Then when i win the job and i just about to start asks the customer will they supply the materials or do they want him to get them at an extra cost....

 

[merlecollins]

A bit naughty that like

Surely that tact breeds a touch of mis-trust and dissatisfaction between tiler and customer:mad2:

I let the customer know every penny they need to spend to get a FINISHED job from the off

 

[The D]

wrong wrong wrong :incazzato:

 

[Time's Ran Out]

And I bet he sleeps well!

 

[enduro]

He said he isnt doing anything underhand, and the customers dont worry when he mentions it at the start of the job, because he gets them a bit of discount with his trade account...

 

[merlecollins]

He said he isnt doing anything underhand, and the customers dont worry when he mentions it at the start of the job, because he gets them a bit of discount with his trade account...

Yeah, right......that'll be gospel then

 

[enduro]

The guy has loads of work...charges £28sqm min, thats why he spoke to me yesterday to know if i can help him out.

 

[Dan]

Hmmm. I'd consider trying it out if it's winning him work. But I'd perhaps sort of say to the customer "right, if it's ceramics it would be £240, if it's mosaics or stone it would be a bit more" - then if they had something in mind they'd say 'oh no it is ceramics'. Then you're sort of playing on the fact that they may have the tiles already etc. Give them a call the week before or whatever and say, right, I'm just checking everything is there, do you need me to get adhesives? type thing and take it from there.

I don't think it's dodgy but it's not the most ethical way. But times are tough and I'd rather find a way of doing that right where the customers are happy in the end and I get work and sit at home thinking it'll just get done by somebody else.

So I sort of agree with both sides of this argument.

You might find some of the jobs we see being lost for a cheaper quote from somebody else actually isn't cheaper in the end at all but the tiler has quoted labour only and not mentioned materials at all just to secure the work. There's no harm in that as such but you could find yourself tiling with stone when you thought it was 6x6's if you're not careful.

 

[Olz]

The old addage that "its it sounds too good to be true it probably is", springs to mind, the customers must be going for the cheapest qoute my quite a margin or larger jobs if hes not mentioning materials.

 

[doug boardley]

most deffo wrong and immoral in my opinion. He may get away with it in a densely populated area, but if he was doing that up here in the lake district, he'd get no recommendations and no work.

 

[Ajax123]

If that policy wins him work I can onkly think that it is because of 1 or 2 things.
1. He is misleading them in some way and hiding the material prices untill it is too late for them to change their mind cos if I was the customer the first thing I would ask is "what is the extra cost"
2. He is using clever and subtle sales psychology to build a relationship with them by having a reason to continue dialogue beyond the initial approach. I have used this technique very successfully for years. It goes sort of like this - you give him an initial indication of price but say can I just call you back later on to confirm everything properly for you. He usually says yes. (In my world that call back is usualy a couple of hours later when he has had chance to phone up my competitors to check on their prices). When I call him back after the initial how are you etc etc questions I ask what he thought of the price. He will either sayit was ok or not. If not I ask what sort of prices he has received elsewhere. If he was not satisfied with my price I know that if I want the order I have to do something. If he will tell me my competitors price I can decide if I can match or beat it. If I want to beat it I can say something like well as Isaid I was going to come back and confirm things and I have good news as I got it slightly wron earlier and the actual price is (a bit cheaper than my competition). Bear in mind most private customers will give you the information you want. However if he is a bit more shrewd and will not give you the prices but I want the work I have to take a flier. I give him a revised price based on the same excuse i.e. I ask for the order and if he is still not satisifed I will be much more blunt and simply ask what sort of price he had in mind. This is the next stage where I will give myself some time to consider whether I beleive him or not and say I will need to seek outhorisation. Again most private customers will give you this time in the hope of saving a few pennies. At this point I have a number of options. If I beleive his price I will go back after a while and let him know my decision. It will either be yes I can or no I cannot do better on my price and that will be the end of it. Sometimes If I don't beleive him I will ask for a copy of my comeptitors quote as evidence to get my "boss's" authority to reduce my price. On every occasions when I go back I have the opportunity to offer him reasons why he should use me at the higher price and actually reducing the price is the last thing on the agenda. I have used thiese techniques in various guises hundreds of times over the years and where I creat multiple opportuinities to discuss the situation with the customer I have rarely lost an order. It also allows me to analyse what my competitors are doing and I have often been able to convince them that it is not always about price and find a reason for them to use me at a higher price. It sounds a bit shady I know but sales is all about orders at te right price and if you don't talk to the prospect you have no chance of selling to him.

It does not work on people who are trained in either sales or purchasing techniques generally e.g. contract customers so the tactic with them has to be different.

 

[J.R Tiling]

Imho i think its a bit naughtyto do that

If he is only mentioning getting the materias just as he is about to start it puts the customer in an awkward position as they may not have the funds to pay for the extra materials. In that case they may decide not to have the work done leaving the tiler without any work that day and the customer having to wait to get the job done.

Imo i just think its better to be upfront and honest with customers from the start

 

[enduro]

This guy has been doing this for years, always busy and has a very good reputation in the area....maybe he has got it right...It is a dog eat dog
world out there at the moment...:lol:

 

[Alan.P]

Naughty but nice, if the customer doesn't see any materials in the quote then they should pick up on that, unless there's no breakdown on the quite / estimate, if he's quoting labour only, then asks about supplying mats then there's not a lot wrong, as long as it's all detailed as I said.

 

[murf]

most domestic work in my area is priced as labour only. The client gives you an idea of the type of material they want and you price the job on that basis. Most of our clients have already purchased the materials and the tile shops then reccommend fitters to them.

 

[doug boardley]

most domestic work in my area is priced as labour only. The client gives you an idea of the type of material they want and you price the job on that basis. Most of our clients have already purchased the materials and the tile shops then reccommend fitters to them.

I always emphasise that I'll provide the addy, grout etc, I don't want the customer getting inadequate/substandard gear

 

[Sean Page]

If it works good luck to him. I try to give the customer an "all in" price but I'm aware that others use different tactics to secure the work.

On the larger jobs using this approach they would seriously undercut my quotes.

Each to their own though

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Ajax i must be sneakier than you mate, if you were dealing with me i would have done as you thought and knocked even more off, then i would have put my invented price on headed note paper photocopied from the original peoples , and it serves you right for trying to take more than one bight of the cherry :lol::lol::lol:

 

[Peter]

Don't really see a problem with it if the customer doesn't have the tiles picked, as they will be given the opportunity to purchase materials with their tiles. I'd always ask a customer if they want me to supply materials and then I give them the price for labour, the price for materials, and the all in price. This means they know your labour price so can balance it off better with other quotes that might be for labour only. If I quote £80 for materials, and they think I'm pulling a fast one and say "No, I'll get them", in which they spend £100, then it makes me look good into the bargain. :lol:

Also think it sounds better saying £xxpm + materials rather than having a much higher m2 price that has adhesive and grout built into it.

 

[Ajax123]

Ajax i must be sneakier than you mate, if you were dealing with me i would have done as you thought and knocked even more off, then i would have put my invented price on headed note paper photocopied from the original peoples , and it serves you right for trying to take more than one bight of the cherry :lol::lol::lol:

Been there Gooner - seen it many times. The key is to know the market and I can usually guess when I am being told porky's. The key is to not actually drop your prices. As for invented headed paper bear in mind that I have the resources available to me to check if you are a real company or not........business big brother and all that. I am not above ringing the phone number on your headed paper to ask why they are so dashed cheap either.

Having said that - I have fallen for your ploy a couple of times in the past ...... :yikes:

 

[davy_G]

OVer here we tend to quote for fixing only. I usually ask at quoting stage about materials, if they are getting them from the tile shop then fine, the tile shop stands over the quality and I explain what I need, ie flexible, rapid set etc.
I offer to supply at a discount but try not to get involved if they dont want me to. No running around, and the shop is responsible for gear. Ive often sent muck back or refused. However most regular brands are OK and gives you experience at using them.

 

[marbleman]

labour adhesive grout is the normal way to do it per m2 , but does it matter really if you are getting business pricing it labour only and then offering to supply materials nearer the start time so be it, if it works dont fix it

 

[Colour Republic]

That is deception in my eyes; surely he can only do this on fairly small jobs? As materials can run into hundreds/thousands quite quickly. How does he get round to the customer "oh didn't you know we need 20 tile backer boards, 10 bags of slc etc etc"?. If I was the customer I would be pretty angry that a professional should think I know what is needed.

I still win 80% of my quotes (down from about 90%) and I am far from cheap. I’m not even the middle quote; I would think I’m near top end. I haven't lowered my pricing either. Some of this will be down to recommendations but most of it is down to honesty. I give the customer every single bit of information available to be able to make an informed choice. People are much more savvy nowadays and I do not take them for fools. I list all materials (including brand names) over £5 (anything under goes under Misc. or sundries). EVERYTHING is itemised, if it's something like a decorating quote I list every single coat of paint that will be applied! And I even tell them if something is not included that may be necessary depending on what we find and how much it may cost. So that when I give my estimate I also tell them that in order to accept the quote they need to bear in mind that it may rise to x amount if we find xyz. Everybody knows what is included and what is not, no argument. Hell, if there is part of a job we can do but are not set up to do, I tell them I happy to included it in my estimate but I can’t be competitive because other firms have the guys to do it on the books (for example Bricklayers, I’m taking extensions here not dwarf walls)

It also goes a long way to educating the customer how much work is involved in a job they may perceive as simple and quick, when it's listed like this they are shocked.

I know they look at my quote that can be pages long and put it next to somebody else’s that is a one line "we'll do it for x amount" and it puts doubt in their mind in what the other person is and isn't doing for that money and what the quality of the materials is they will be using.

I also spend far more time at the job when quoting than anybody else, going through all the different options, the costs involved and what level of finish they want (Perfect faultless finish, pleasing to the eye or just a plain freshen up), this way you give them a price suited to their budget. It also makes it easy to build a rapport with the client and for them to see how passionate and professional your firm is. They know a lot more about me and the team than the guy who was in and out within 5 mins. I would guess my prices are 15-20% higher than the competition but people are happy to pay for peace of mind.

It has to be said that my quotes rarely take less than 2 hours for a simple quote and larger 25K+ jobs can take a few days to put together so this does have admin costs attached but winning such a high percentage and charging more means, I effectively get paid for quoting.

 

[Aston]

the issue i can see is he is being vague with the customer when his job as a professional tradesman is to give a clear breakdown in the begining! as to what he is charging for.

this is why there is price wars and misleading quotes and this is why the customer should be asking for breakdowns of the work AND materials..lets be honest here, thats how it should be done and thats how we'd like our quotes to be done too..

you want to see what you are paying for? thats the ethical bit. theres no harm in selling your prducts ie adhesives and sealers and trims etc but it should be done the right way ie you make a bit and they save a bit.

i believe in honesty is the best policy. business is about making money But theres a right way and a wrong way and only your own conscience can tell you that..

i am sure he's a decent fella at heart just riding on a bit of a wave but would he like the same tactics done to him or would he like to know what he's paying for from the start?

 

[Dan]

I sort of see it like this, customers is asking for a price to tile their bathroom, and you give them one labour only. I know if you work close with a tile shop you can just say to the customer "so that will be £200 then, go [insert tile shop name here] to get your stuff and speak to Fred who will be happy to help you out". I don't think that's dodgy.

When I tiled we'd often price for the whole job but not tiles and adhesives as that's the shops bit and they deal with that. Though on some when the customers called us we'd perhaps get them to go in the shop and pick the tiles and get a price and then we'd go in and get them cheaper and either profit or split the difference with the customer.

it wasn't as dog eat dog then though to be fair.

 

[Colour Republic]

I have to add that it annoys me that somebody would use these tactics as to me it puts another little black mark against the way the builders/tradesmens conduct themselves and how the industry is perceived.

If this guy has a good name, I can only assume that his work is top notch so that even though the customer would be annoyed with the sting at the begining by the end they are happy with the completed job and the cost involved. So essentially I would discourage anybody taking this approach unless you can back it up with a faultless finish, but if that's the case why not sell yourself at the start?

 

[ricmrc]

i wouldn't do that. i'd be annoyed if someone did it to me so its not fair to do it to others.
i always give details of exactly what the customer is paying for up front, and if theres a chance of lots of prep work involved, then i always give worstcase price and if it doesnt need as much work as suspected then theres a chance of the cost being less,
its easier than going to customer on first day of ripout and saying this needs done and its going to cost you extra.

 

[tfs]

I have learned the hard when in the past when it comes to pricing. I now never entertain a price that I may not be happy with. There is nothing worse than having to stay on a job that you have underpriced.

If the figure isnt what you want or would be happy to work for then tell them this is your price, take it or leave it! You can normaly get the job by selling yourself a bit, show them proof of liabilty etc. Talk to them about anything that could be done worng by womeone who isnt qualified and suggest best practices/materials for the specific job.

Price the job right!

Never set a false expectation level! (if you do, then at least ensure that you have under promised and over delivered. Not the other way around)

Dont be pressured into reducing your price just to win their custom!

Remember your prices are based on your experience, knowledge, skill and prfessionalism so dont let your customer under value this.

 

[Aqua Tiling]

if i was the customer i would be peed off, it leads them to believe that its all in the price

 

[Aqua Tiling]

its like going to kfc and getting a burger, then they say, are you suppling the mayo and lettace or are we at extra cost

:lol::lol:

 

[CJ]

If you give a price..........(I think) it should include materials in that price. Then you know wot you are used to, and wot you like. Other than some cheap never used before rubbish.

Customers generally feel as though you are trying to stitch them up if your not straight up with them, and it leaves a bitter taste in their eyes.

I find if your up front with them........they love ya and your name gets passed around more. I have customers that have kept my card for years...........so I must be doing something right