Pva Versus Primers | Always Use A Primer When Tiling, And Not Pva

[seanboy]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Hi all
Excellent thread and forum,but now I'm gonna provide another collective groan:mad2:
We built our extension 3 yrs ago and I'm finally getting round to tiling the kitchen floor! Got some gorgeous 600x400 silver nickel slate tiles,getting a good deal on some bal rapidset flex and flex grout 2mrw at CTD before their Feb offer ends,a guy at Bal said PTB might be better but the rapidset would do also. Tiling onto a well cured (!) concrete substrate with wet system UFH.
Done various slate and travertine jobs over the years so feel confident about tackling 28Msq of kitchen/utility and bathroom,planning to run the tiles thru.
Can also get Everbuild flex at a slightly lower price and wondered if it was more/less suitable,not trying to save here,just want the best for the job,I believe in doing things once and doing them right. Just wish I'd known how crap PVA was...:ban:

Now for the groan...

Because the builder knew we weren't gonna tile for a while he said to put a PVA mix 4:1 down as a sealer/dust barrier. It's certainly kept the dust down! Spoke with Bal tech and they said to get some prime APD and try a bit in a corner and see if it reacts. CTD only have bond SBR and Bal tech said try that,much and such....
Then I read this thread! Now I'm thinking I should just get down on my hands and kneepads and start scrubbing to get the evil s**t off altogether. All suggestions/advice gratefully received! Anyone else successfuly removed PVA?
Now I'm off to walk the dog to clear my head,it hurts:mad2:

 

[grumpygrouter]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

I would get rid of the PVA. No point in having it potentially fail and ruin what will probably be a magnificent floor by taking short cuts.

 

[Olz]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

CTD can get APD, you may have to ask them to order it in though but it should only take a day or two.

 

[seanboy]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Yeah thats where I'm at Grumpy,just put the scrubbing brush down to pour another dram:8:,thinking I might see what mechanical means are hireable locally,a decent floor cleaner/steamer with rotating brushes and an aquavac plus some elbow grease here and there ought to do it,the floor will only benefit from a good clean anyway,on with the UFH for a dry out and back to square 1.
Tech guy at Bal didnt seem to think it made much odds which primer I used Oli but I'll see whats available.
C'est la vie...

 

[ron_141414]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Hi,
I'm a new member and came to ask about tiling over a chipboard/ plywood floor and this was the first thread I came to as it was about PVA. We had a bedroom replastered and the plasterer said PVA seemed to be the chosen sealer 'these days' as all the DIY shows were using it. After using PVA and then painting the walls we noticed a few blisters. After rubbing them down and repainting the affected areas we had large blisters, eventually we had three foot diameter fairy rings on the walls. That's another of my jobs for this summer - rubdown all the walls and repaint again!!! I certainly will not be using PVA on any walls ever again.

 

[pt44]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Yeah thats where I'm at Grumpy,just put the scrubbing brush down to pour another dram:8:,thinking I might see what mechanical means are hireable locally,a decent floor cleaner/steamer with rotating brushes and an aquavac plus some elbow grease here and there ought to do it,the floor will only benefit from a good clean anyway,on with the UFH for a dry out and back to square 1.
Tech guy at Bal didnt seem to think it made much odds which primer I used Oli but I'll see whats available.
C'est la vie...

Just a thought - and to add a bit of thought and spice - surely, if PVA is as bad as we know it is and have been told it is, it will fail when it gets damp. Bit of moisture and it will pop right off, throwing all your tiles off. This is the point of this whole thread (if memory serves correctly).

Therefore - surely - just wet the floor. The PVA will losen, then you can simply scrub/peel it off. If it doesn't work, then perhaps the PVA is a little bit tougher than we have been led to believe? Which throws up all kinds of thoughts.

Paul

 

[seanboy]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Therefore - surely - just wet the floor. The PVA will losen, then you can simply scrub/peel it off. If it doesn't work, then perhaps the PVA is a little bit tougher than we have been led to believe? Which throws up all kinds of thoughts.

Yeah,sounds easy...........
Seeing as it was me that put the PVA on and I know a thing or two about surface prep for coatings,rest assured it was put on for keeps and more than one coat applied. Anyway I spent a happy:incazzato:weekend with a Numatic rotary floor cleaner (from Brandon Hire) unable to put it completely flat as per polishing simply because of the friction created by concrete as opposed to tiles. Lashings of HOT water and 2 or 3 goes over each area with my 80 yr old father outlaw on the Aqua vac did the trick with the added benefit of cleaning the floor which needed done anyway.
I let the place dry out for a week,UFH on and then sealed with Bal APD once the RH had come down. Now busy tiling,looks fab and Bal rapidset sticking like s**t to the proverbial blanket,planning some charcoal grout followed by a big party:hurray:
I'm definitely glad I spent the time on prep but I'd still be cleaning it now without mechanical help,the Aqua vac was essential as well as you need to be able to lift it up once liquified

 

[STINGRAY30]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

thanks dave, beginnig to gets the grip of this game.

 

[stairman]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

watched a tiler put a thick coat of PVA on the walls the day before tiling. I thought this was wrong due to in effect tiling on a sheet of polythene. I see from this post that I was right but for the wrong reason

 

[honza1]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

I have done many jobs using PVA and I have never heard about any problems with my jobs. I quess I am just lucky.

However from now on I will not PVA again for tiling.

 

[zenman63]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Hi, Are you gus saying, you have put PVA on as a sealer without watering it down 5-1?
In that case it will peel of, pva as a sealer, never had a problem, it goes right in to the back ground.
I am never to old to learn and I am taking on what you are all saying.
I have some big floors to do, 150m sandstone, 75m limestone etc and would just mix 1 L pva with a 5L water and wash it down with a roller, when its dry I start to fix, never had a problem in over 20 years.
I would never put tub adhesive on wood as you are looking for problems, and would never use tud adhesve in a wet area also, pva or not.

What do you guys recomend as a sealer then?

 

[DHTiling]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Acrylic primers....these also prevent ettringite failure when tiling over gypsum substrates..

 

[spatech]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Hi everyone.
ABOUT PVA

I HAVE JUST BEEN BROUGHT IN TO TAKE OVER A JOB FROM SOME TILIERS AS THE WORK THAY HAD DONE WAS PRETTY BAD,THAY PARTLY TILED 1 OFF THE BATHROOMS.
I HAD TO FINISH THIS OFF I FITTED ALL THE MOSAICS AFTER PRIMER WAS APPLIED TO THE WALLS.THEN I HAD TO FINISH THE BOTTOM ROW OF 300X600 PORCILINE TILES TO THE WALLS THAY HAD DONE ,WE FINISHED OUR TILING AT THE BOTTOM AND TOP OF THE WALLS THAY LEFT AGAIN WE USED PRIMER BEFORE HAND, THE CLIENT NOTICED SOME OF THE GAPS ON THE TILES THE PREVIOUS TILERS HAD FITTED WERE SLIGHTLY DIFFRENT WE AGREED TO ALTER THESE TILES FOR THE CLIENT, THE CLIENT WAS STANDING WITH US WHEN WE REMOVED ONE THE TILES AND IT JUST POPPED OFF WITH NO FORCE NEEDED ,FUTHER INSPECTION OF THIS REVELED THE TILIERS HAD USED PVA AND THE PLASTER WAS SHINEY THE ADHISIVE HAD NOT STUCK TO THE WALL AT ALL,NEEDLESS TO SAY THE CLIENT WAS NOT HAPPY AT ALL ,HE DECIEDED TO CALL THE PREVIOUS TILERS BACK ,
THAY DONE THE RIGHT THING AND COME BACK TO THE JOB (I WAS SHOCKED THAY TURNED UP).THAY SAID THAY WOULD REPLACE THE LOSE ONES ,THE CLIENT ASKED FOR OUR ADVISE AND IF WE COULD SPEAK TO THE TILERS ON BEHALF OF THE CLIENT WITH THE CLIENT THERE.
WE DID THIS AND WE SHOWED THEM THAT ALL OUR TILES WE HAD FITTED BOTH ON OUR WALLS AND THE WALLS THAY LEFT WERE SOUND AND SOLID.
ANYWAY THAY HAD TO ROMOVE ALL THE TILES IN BETWEEN THA ONES WE FITTED.
THEN THAY TRIED TO MAKE EXCUSSES AND SAID WE NO WHAT THE PROBLEM IS ,OUR EARS PRICKED UP AS WE THOUGHT WOW ,THEN THAY SAID IT MUST BE A BAD BATCH OF ADHISIVE ARGHHHHHHHHHH ,I WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THIS THOUGHT AS NOW THAY WANTED TO CHARGE THE CLIENT FOR MORE ADHISEVE THAY HAD BEEN USING NICOBOND ,
WE HAVE DONE LOADS OF TILING IN THIS HOUSE FOR THE CLIENT AND HAVE HAD NO PROPS WITH THEM AND THAY LOVE THE WET ROOMS WE HAVE DONE AND ALL THE FLOORS ,THIS WHEN I ASKED THE TILERS IF THAY PRIMED THE WALLS THE REPLY WAS (YER MATE COUSE WE AVE MATE ),I SAID WHAT WITH HIS REPLY WAS (F ING UNIBOND MATE )I NEW THIS OF COURSE I TOLD THEM U MUST USE THE PRIMER THAT IS WHY THE TILES YOU HAVE FITTED ARE FALLING OF THE WALL AND OURS ARE SOLID ,THAY SAID YER WE DONT USE THAT S--T STUFF, THERE U GO NO TELLING SOME PEOPLE ,I HAVE INFORMED THE CLIENT HE ASKED AS IF WE COULD TAKE THIS OVER AS WELL ,AS HE HAS NO TRUST WITH THEM ,WE CANT AS WE DONT HAVE TIME
ANYWAY THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS PLEASE USE PRIMER......BIT LONG WINDED BUT I GOT THERE IN THE END .SORRY ABOUT THE SPELLING BUT I AM A TILER NOT A TYPIST. THANKS

 

[David - Tradetiler]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Hi everyone.
.SORRY ABOUT THE SPELLING BUT I AM A TILER NOT A TYPIST. THANKS

Ouch , do you have a Caps Lock key?

 

[nhgfc]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

my first post on here and its confession time!!

I have ALWAYS pva'd at around 6 to 1 before any tiling i've done.

But after sitting here reading every single post on this thread and my heart has sank like the titanic:yikes:

Cue the sleepless nights worrying about all those tiles i've layed over the years😳

 

[DHTiling]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

Are you still going to use pva..?..:smilewinkgrin:

 

[brian c]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

hes away to hang head in shame.:yikes:

 

[White Room]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

It's good that the guy admitted he won't be using pva again

 

[brian c]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

aye same as me with the gyproc Mark

 

[brian c]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

i have said this before,i know tilers who swear by pva and wont listen to a word you try and say to them regarding creating a barrier between tile and substrate and just laugh...what do we know.😛rrr:

 

[Bartlett]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

i have said this before,i know tilers who swear by pva and wont listen to a word you try and say to them regarding creating a barrier between tile and substrate and just laugh...what do we know.😛rrr:

Yes, I'm only just past 'novice tiler' stage but already I've met a few tilers 'who have always PVA and always will, cos it's never been a problem.'

 

[pt44]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

my first post on here and its confession time!!

I have ALWAYS pva'd at around 6 to 1 before any tiling i've done.

But after sitting here reading every single post on this thread and my heart has sank like the titanic:yikes:

Cue the sleepless nights worrying about all those tiles i've layed over the years😳

The really big question is - how many of those tiles are still up and still fine? Have you actually had to go back to any of those jobs, to repair them? Perhaps the tiles have all fallen off and the people simply haven't told you, they've just slagged you off to others!

Who knows. I have no doubt that the arguments against PVA are all totally true - however, it does make one wonder, that at the end of the day many many people were using PVA for a long long time before this widespread knowledge of its poor abilities came to light. One would have thought that if it really was so bad - then the problems would have been spotted immediately and it word would have spread like wildfire about it. But it simply didn't (did it?). I'm not sure how long PVA has been used or how long primers have been about, but it does seem strange to me that from my poor knowledge of it, PVA was used for a long time.

In no way am I recommending using it - just commenting on what I see.

Paul

 

[jimbob]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

I've just had my bathroom plastered, let it dry for a couple of weeks, and then went over it last week with a weak (7-1) coat of Evostick waterproof PVA. I've spent all week painting it!

I don't intend tiling all of it, just around the bath, so will it be ok just to sand the relevant area down before tiling, to try to remove the PVA, or is some other prep required?

Cheers!

 

[brian c]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

imo,a light sand down and then give it a coat of acrylic primer.

 

[nhgfc]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

here's a question for you all...

I've removed a laminate floor at my house as it was always spreading at a certain joint and im sick of "jump & sliding" it back together. Dont tell me you dont know the jump and slide "move" cos i know you do!!

anyway, the reason it kept popping at that certain part was down to the gargantuan drop the bitchumen/ashphalt floor suffers at that point. I intended to self level and tile, but after ringing BAL technical this afternoon to find out the best primer (not PVA) to use on Bitchumen, only to be told they dont recommend doing anything with bitchumen other than removing it completely.

Removal is not an option as this was poured in and floated in when i bought the house (built circu 1927) to act as a damp proof barrier. Its not a thin layer originally used to fix vinyl tiles etc, im sure you will all know what i mean?

So whats my options here? I've been and bought BAL Bond but im at pains to just go ahead and use it without asking first. I intend to tile the floor in the end by the way.

 

[doug boardley]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

I'd be tempted to put a 1:2 SBR /water down as a primer and then use a flexible slc

 

[Viceroy]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

I'm still unsure here !
Ive stopped using pva on plywood overlays !
Should I be using Bal SBR diluted or Bal APD on face to be tiled ?
When the adhesive states to use a suitable primer ?

Cheers

 

[White Room]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

I've used both for priming

 

[doug boardley]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

I've not used bal primer, but I'm always prepared to use an sbr dilution of 1:3, (sbr: water), I do keep bottles of ultra, flex prime and Primer G in my van for when I use said addy's

 

[Colour Republic]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

I've removed a laminate floor at my house as it was always spreading at a certain joint and im sick of "jump & sliding" it back together. Dont tell me you dont know the jump and slide "move" cos i know you do!!

:lol::lol: I thought i had the copyright on that move!

 

[DHTiling]

Re: P.v.a. Versus Primers......

here's a question for you all...

I've removed a laminate floor at my house as it was always spreading at a certain joint and im sick of "jump & sliding" it back together. Dont tell me you dont know the jump and slide "move" cos i know you do!!

anyway, the reason it kept popping at that certain part was down to the gargantuan drop the bitchumen/ashphalt floor suffers at that point. I intended to self level and tile, but after ringing BAL technical this afternoon to find out the best primer (not PVA) to use on Bitchumen, only to be told they dont recommend doing anything with bitchumen other than removing it completely.

Removal is not an option as this was poured in and floated in when i bought the house (built circu 1927) to act as a damp proof barrier. Its not a thin layer originally used to fix vinyl tiles etc, im sure you will all know what i mean?

So whats my options here? I've been and bought BAL Bond but im at pains to just go ahead and use it without asking first. I intend to tile the floor in the end by the way.

PCI do a self adhesive bitumen faced membrane which is fleeced on the side you tile..perfect for sticking to bitchumen...