Search the forum,

Discuss What primer and adhesive - underfloor calcium sulphate in the Tile Adhesive / Grout Advice area at TilersForums.com.

kiteboy

TF
4
148
Swansea
Hi all

Just wondering if there are any recommendations for correct primer and adhesive for a kitchen with underfloor (piped) heating on a calcium sulphate screed

Ive was planning on using Bal APD primer and BAL adhesive but Ive just read that BAL stuff is cement based so perhaps no good??

Thought Id ask the question before we start as Ive heared of horror stories or tiles having to be relayed - may as well try and get right first

Thanks all
 
D

Dumbo

isn't the problem a long time reaction between gypsum and cement where the two touch, could take years to fail ?
isn't the problem a long time reaction between gypsum and cement where the two touch, could take years to fail ?
Actually I thought it was the other as when both parts were inert ie finished curing that was it . Obviously some things although may not have a good bond from the get go may take time to show the problem . I couldn't see how dry anhydrate and dry cement is going to start reacting maybe @Ajax123 could share some knowledge on this .
 
O

One Day

I think you have to sand the floor no matter how long the screed has been down, preferably using a MASSIVE diamond grinding machine - and be sure to take off at least 5mm exposing the soft belly of the beast.
Then prime several times with an epoxy primer - preferably dashed with sand for a good key.
Then install Ditra using a gypsum adhesive.
Then commission the heating for a few weeks, being sure to let everything cool.
Then fix tiles using a cement adhesive, and don't forget to perform the rituals and offerings to the manufacturers of Calcium Suplhate before beginning....

(or you could use common sense and listen to the independent experts advice)
 
O

On one

isn't the problem a long time reaction between gypsum and cement where the two touch, could take years to fail ?
On a similar note ....I have a domestic customer who had problems with some solid wall plastering issues.
Turns out the builder/plasterer in the late 90's had first coated the solid stone walls with sand and cement render then second coated with gypsum based bonding plaster then a gypsum finish coat..........the result,albeit 20yrs later......the gypsum had delaminated from the sand and cement render..............
Just my penniesworth!
 
O

One Day

I'm enjoying this thread...

giphy.gif
 

Ajax123

TF
Esteemed
Arms
931
1,213
Lincolnshire
1.5% moisture in anhydrite screeds will be 92%rh with a tolerance of 5% built into the test. With flexbone this becomes irrelevant because the mat is not bonded to the screed and because the mat allows the moisture to migrate. there is a continuing myth that trapping the moisture in the screed leads to the screed breaking down. It does not. Ettrignite can only form in the presence of moisture. your primers and adhesives are largely water mixed which is why Cement based adhesives should not if at all possible be use. If they are then a good chemical barrier is needed and acrylic just does not do the job well enough. The other major issue that I come across im afraid is preparation workmanship e.g primer not applied evenly, adhesive too wet, primer not applied in enough coats etc etc. The use of calcium sulphate adhesive eliminates completely the risk of ettringite and so is a better option. Calcium Sulphate screeds can often be used at higher RH than cement e.g 80% or some allow 85%. If the screed is very wet e.g. up to 99%RH then Norcross offer a guaranteed system. BAL do not offer a gypsum based adhesive.
 
O

One Day

I'll offer my advice and experience (for what it's worth) and without the previous sarcasm (apologies to all!)

Flatness - These floors should be lovely and flat, and for the most they are.
But don't assume they are - I have seen some absolute howlers in Lancashire/Manchester areas.

Laitence - massive confusion and conflicting arguments abound, but laitence is ALWAYS there no matter the claims of zero or low laitence. In my experience the laitence is always left on far too long (should be removed after 7 days or so) or else it's forgotten about until we come along and it's been literally baked on so it's not dusty, loose or flaky.
Some people insist on removing any and all laitence no matter what it's like. I know loose, friable laitence 100% needs to come up, but in my experience, if you need to get diamond cups on to remove it, then it can stay where it is - it's not going to affect the bond.
But hey, if you feel happier grinding it back then go for it. Personally, I wouldn't waste the time or money.
I will hire a floor sander and 60grit silicone carbide pads which I find remove any and all LOOSE laitence easily, while not removing the baked on stuff.
(Be sure to vacuum properly afterwards of course)

Priming - I only ever tile heated screeds using Ditra/Rapidmat/Tilemaster matting, so I fix those using TM Anhyfix mixed quite loose and using a mosaic trowel. I will prime once with acrylic or SBR just to knock back the absorbtion and increase the bond of the anhyfix although it's not really necessary.

Cement adhesive - I like Anhyfix, but not for tiling - I prefer to use what I am used to, cement based adhesives and on top of a membrane you can use what you like.

Moisture - I use hygrometer boxes, as well as getting knowledge of when the screed went in, weather conditions and heating commissioning to determine when things are ready. Always be aware that a fairly new screed can give "dry" readings, only to "bounce back" with loads of moisture following wet weather, heating cycles, and plastering/painting - so in my experience, time and heating cycles are a far better measure than anything less than a carbide bomb test.

Testing - most adhesive company reps will come out and test for you FOC, so use them! Get them in early and use the service they offer.

Last words - With gypsum based adhesives, and membranes being a good idea on heated floors anyway, there's no need to be overly concerned about epoxy primers and etringite reactions nowadays. I wouldn't risk using cement based adhesive onto calcium suplhate screeds because quite simply; there's no need to.

Ultimately, different manufacturers will specify different methods.
Different screed installers will say different things.
If you're unsure - ask questions, use adhesive reps for testing and use common sense, and use what works for you.

(and if I am wrong about anything here, I will humbly listen and take it on board!)
 

Reply to What primer and adhesive - underfloor calcium sulphate in the Tile Adhesive / Grout Advice area at TilersForums.com

There are similar tiling threads here

    • Like
  • Question
Hi, I am planning on tiling my concrete garage floor with porcelain tiles. The concrete was laid down several years ago by a previous owner, and it looks like it was also polished and sealed -...
Replies
2
Views
1K
Posting a tiling question to the forum? Post in Tilers' Talk if you are unsure which forum to post in. We'll move it if there's a more suitable forum.

Advertisement

Birthdays

Top