Spot fixing

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

what i find fascinating is how peeps arrive at using this method of fixing, do they spot the floor then bed the tile, ?or are they spotting the tile then laying the whole thing on the floor/wall ? surly they must know that there will be voids under the tile that will not be supported,? is this method more prevalent in one part of the country than another ? shouldn't the we as tilers of the UK chip in a few quid-each and have a national wide campaign against this problematic method of fixing ? there must be peeps on this forum that have used this way of fixing in the past before being enlightened that could fess-up and tell us a bit about it ? without us all ridiculing them of course !! what are you thoughts

 

[The D]

Spot fixing started in the sixties and the spots have got bigger as the tiles have got bigger and the plasterers have lost the skill to actually get a wall flat.

 

[Aston]

you're brutal deano, brutal ;0)

 

[The D]

you're brutal deano, brutal ;0)

sorry m8 :lol:

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Spot fixing started in the sixties and the spots have got bigger as the tiles have got bigger and the plasterers have lost the skill to actually get a wall flat.

OK well is used on floors as well, what about the other questions ? are you saying its a method that has been developed by the everyday tiler to get -over uneven walls or what, more info please if you can deano, where did the sixties bit come from,? there have been un-flat walls from the time wall were first build imo

 

[The D]

ok the history of spot fixing as I see it
Back in the days of sand and cement fixing a blob of sand and cement was applied to the back of a 4 by 4 or a 6 by 6 tile and it was taped in to place creating a solid bed. with the introduction of the early pre mixed adhesives the tilers started putting five spots on the back of the tiles and it has gone on from there.
It is not a recognised method and defiantly should not be used to fix large format tiles or floor tiles. There is a method that I do use it is still not best practise but is some times necessary if the client will not go down the root of paying to prep the job correctly and that is “bedding out” this is when a wall or floor is so uneven that you apply the adhesive to the surface and then you apply more adhesive to the back of the tile to fill the hollow spots and ensure maximum contact. But there is no substitute for correct prep IMHO

 

[Marksmithtiling]

Spot fixing started in the sixties and the spots have got bigger as the tiles have got bigger and the plasterers have lost the skill to actually get a wall flat.

With you on the plastering .... always around windows

 

[White Room]

With you on the plastering .... always around windows

And that is a sad truth....

 

[ishi69]

Yep I'm saddened to have to agree with you both.

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Years ago i don't think tiling was a separate trade, it was encompassed by mason's plasterers so they would have naturally fixed in mortar, even when i was a young lad and we fixed in sand and cement i cant remember blobbing ,we used to screed,then the tiles that had been soaked and drained were slurry d with neat OPC then positioned on the screed then a flat section of wood placed over them then beaten down......or the screed sprinkled with opc, then splashed with water tiles layd/beaten down

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

I see where everyone is coming from, but my stand has to be, if we can prep walls/floors to the best standard possible ie. get them right plumb, level, and lineable. There would be no need for dot and dab. Just my take on it.

 

[bugs183]

I think it comes down to not wanting to spend money on adhesives, and believe big tiles are stronger and easier to fix.
As Deano says the old school way with sand and cement wall fixing was to spot them, but how many people these days especially younger folk even knew tiles were fixed with sand and cement?
It's just human nature being what it is and in tiling people don't like paying money on adhesives and still believe and say 'oh i got bigger tiles cus it's easier for you to fix'

 

[Aston]

i agree that some of the standard of plastering is not as good as it was but i was also under the assumption, that floating out a wall to accomodate tiling along with floor screeding was part of a tilers duties?

 

[bugs183]

I don't agree with that. I've been tiling over 20 years and i've never screeded a floor (done wetroom shower bases), with the advent of adhesives the screeding in my view has been passed to professional screeders.
I've been asked but always say get a screeder, no one has ever said it was my job.
Same as plastering. Plasterers used to tile back in the day, but with the advent of adhesives the two trades have parted. So if a plasterer has done the job, you expect him to have done his job well and made it flat and plumb.
I'm not knocking lads here that do it all, but on the whole tilers tile and plasterers and screeders prepare the substrates.

 

[White Room]

I always considered it as part of the plasterers job, any job where even kitchen worktops were going I would make sure they were flat as the same for areas of tiling.

 

[Aston]

maybe it was just fizzled out in the 1980's. but i could have sworn it was part of a time served tilers duties??

just to be clear, i dont mean the tiler would float out walls on site or do 100m floor screeds prior to tiling, i mean, they had to be trained how to do it incase they had to rectify a substrate on say a private job/contract?

 

[White Room]

I do know that tilers done sand/cement many years ago on walls and even screeding, I've seen jobs advertised for renderers and skimming....even the plastering trade seems to be breaking up...

 

[bugs183]

Depends how long time served is!
My dads 72, been tiling nearly 50 years, he learnt on sand and cement, it didn't take him long to say no to screeding!!!!!
I think tiling and screeding are now very different diciplines as before you screeded your floor and popped your tiles into it.
Now the process is very different. Mind you there are still gangs of tilers sand and cement screeding and tiling. There's a team of Germans that fly all over the world tiling for Aldi and Lidl, these guys can motor, they'll screed and tile a supermarket faster than most guys would lay with adhesive!!

 

[The D]

Years ago i don't think tiling was a separate trade, it was encompassed by mason's plasterers so they would have naturally fixed in mortar, even when i was a young lad and we fixed in sand and cement i cant remember blobbing ,we used to screed,then the tiles that had been soaked and drained were slurry d with neat OPC then positioned on the screed then a flat section of wood placed over them then beaten down......or the screed sprinkled with opc, then splashed with water tiles layd/beaten down

Ok sorry my mistake it was never done like that and the hundred’s of m2 I took of the walls in the mid 80s was all in my imagination. Well I was taking a lot of drugs at the time.

 

[bansko]

I started my apprenticeship in 1975 and all floor tiling was done monolithic, it was the tilers job to screed and fix in one operation. Wall tiling was mainly adhesive but there was the odd job where the spec required sand&cement fixing ,pit head baths etc. As far as floor screeding goes my opinion is its a tilers job as and when required, i dont particularly like doing it but i know its going to be right. These days it only ever seems to be when working to german specs ie, aldi, Lidl, BMW workshop floors etc that its required, i say this as its my era 50+ and wouldnt expect any of the younger lads to be able to do it. They were good days as there was never any shortage of work about and you were very well paid for it, these days we seem to follow so called floor screeders who go for the shovel finish, and dry liners who have been on a 3 week course. Its not good.

 

[afright]

When i first started tiling all floors were fixed with sand and cement mainly we used pit sand with level batons bedded to the concrete ,early 70s started to use sharp sand with a slurry over the top this method was known as swedish style You started as a Tilers mate you had to be on the job half an hour before to have the muck ready,wash of the tiles as he laid them,and at the end of the day stay behind to wash all the tilers tools clean up and prepare for next day and you would grout the floor from the day before the grout being cement 2 parts to one part sand then cleaned of with damp sawdust no washing with a sponge ,and all the muck was knocked up by hand my old boss did,nt like mixers... you did sleep well.

 

[bansko]

That just about sums up my apprenticeship, some of them old fixers should have been reported to the cruelty man.

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

Depends how long time served is!
My dads 72, been tiling nearly 50 years, he learnt on sand and cement, it didn't take him long to say no to screeding!!!!!
I think tiling and screeding are now very different diciplines as before you screeded your floor and popped your tiles into it.
Now the process is very different. Mind you there are still gangs of tilers sand and cement screeding and tiling. There's a team of Germans that fly all over the world tiling for Aldi and Lidl, these guys can motor, they'll screed and tile a supermarket faster than most guys would lay with adhesive!!

Bugs I ran a team for over ten years doing power vibration floors, all sand and cement Aldi, Lidl, Netto, etc. we got rid of the German gangs from the UK by doing the stores faster and to a better standard, went on to work in Europe, USA, these skills should not be underestimated imo, not taking anything from the German fixers, just we were better/faster we made some silly money on them. Tilers should know how to screed/ render it is part of the trade, again tiling is a trade I get fed up of hearing the phrase anyone can tile, rant over, for now.

 

[AMtek]

I think a lot of people D&D because they don't know any better

 

[Daveshadowman]

i agree that some of the standard of plastering is not as good as it was but i was also under the assumption, that floating out a wall to accomodate tiling along with floor screeding was part of a tilers duties?

the plaster should get the wall flat the bloke doing the floor should get it flat as a tiler we should be putting a bed down/ on depented on size of tile to size of trowel etc no dot and dab if you have to dot and dab then the surface is not right do not do the job end of

 

[Aston]

the plaster should get the wall flat the bloke doing the floor should get it flat as a tiler we should be putting a bed down/ on depented on size of tile to size of trowel etc no dot and dab if you have to dot and dab then the surface is not right do not do the job end of

i agree daveshadow, my point was, tilers ued to be able to sort their own walls and floors if the need required it thats all .
i understand that some tilers now cannot float a wall and use a feather eadge to flatten it, never mind plumb dot and screed it. i also understand that some tilers could'nt do a floor screed but they used to be able to and i would love to see that reintroduced as part of the nvq because we would be improving the trade and adding the old skills which made the trade more complete....the australians still include rendering and floor screeding in their apprenticeships and they are getting the reputation, we used to have. also, in this recession, having the ability to cut the plasterer out of the equasion on say domestic work, would be a great advantage too!!

anyway, back to the thread, oh yeah, dont dot and dab and plasterers, sort your selves out ;0)

 

[afright]

There,s some tiler,s would not know the first thing about laying a floor with sand and cement,I was even trained in making terrazzo tiles and doing on site terrazzo in situ,the trouble is too many DIY tilers think they can have ago,Ive come across many in my time.

 

[widler]

too many 'plasterers' aint plasterers,its that simple really,as whitebeam has mentioned a plasterers job is being split for some reason.
my apprenticeship was 4 years my 1st year or so was learning how to mix,gauging gear making sure every external render mix was the right colour,and woe be tide me *** if it was not right,christ i would of had a easier time in the SAS.
anyway,my walls are always true,cos i blinking tile em 😉

and if anyone can't get a drylined wall true,they really should be working in a completely different profession,window cleaning would be a good one,surely thye could clean windows right 🙂

 

[Dan]

Seen loads of flags spot fixed but unless they're having vehicles going over them they can take the eight of foot traffic fine like that. It's when you get ceramics being spot fixed with not enough adhesive to cover the back when you tamp them down that you end up not being able to drill the damn things or fix anything to them. And eventually natural crazing in them become cracks. And the cracks end up following through the grout and onto the next tile etc etc

It shouldn't get done full stop IMO and never should have with adhesive. I can understand sand/cement not being so spreadable but adhesive was made the way it was so it can be spreadable.

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Good point's here Lads ! but it sound like plasterers /screeders are being held to blame for poor sub straights supplied ,tilers have the option of rejecting,or even correcting this or IF they can refuse to tile on it,so there is STILL no excuse to spot -fix /DD, and nobody has come -up with the way in which we as a trade ,can STAMP IT OUT,OUTLAW IT, OR MAKE IT A ILLEGAL ??? if you read my first post :hurray:

 

[Ste450]

Surely if at least 70%/80% coverage is achieved, then the method is irrelevant? People keep saying they achieve 100% coverage, but time and time again when I'm ripping of old tiles I pretty much never see a evidence if a solid bed. There's nothing on the back of the tile and there is only a comb of adhesive left on the wall. It's like the tile had only been slightly touching the adhesive, hanging on for dear life. I prefer to spotfix on larger tiles, and by this I mean on a 600/300 tile, I'd use 18 spots which when compressed, spreads out to achieve a good coverage. I also find that this gives better adhesion, especially to plasterboard and you can actually level the tile instead of relying on a perfect wall which is rare, especially if its a timber stud wall. I only use top quality cement based adhesives as well, usually rapid setting. I recently ripped out a friends bathroom where the tiles were spot fixed and it took me two days to rip out down to the brick. The tiles were ridiculously solid and so was most of the old render.