Tiles de-bonding from new house - TilersForums.com

[Andy Allen]

Was the UFH commissioned before tiling.?

How long after tiling was the UFH left off before being turned on for the first time.?

And how was the UFH turned on the first time after tiling?

 

[Tileadvice]

Yes, the UHF was commissioned by the building contractor. We were instructed to turn it on for 2week, then off two weeks. It was back on a week after.

Interestingly, the bathrooms are fine. A different tiler used leveling compound for to slope wet room, however used different Larsen batches...

I am wondering what could caused the Solvent smell under the tile when it was lifted? It smelled like Window cleaner

 

[Andy Allen]

The tiling should of been left for 3 to 4 weeks before turning the UFH on , then it should of been turned on just a few degrees each day to build up the temperature very slowly.

 

[Old Mod]

Unfortunately it’s difficult to determine very much at all at the moment because the information you are providing is incomplete.
The under floor heating commissioning is very important and is done in a very specific way.
Incorrect procedures can cause catastrophic failure.

To say it was turned on for two weeks and then turned off two weeks, and back on a week later, just isn’t enough information I’m afraid.
Temperature increase by specific increments is very important as is the time scale.
It sounds by the way you’re describing it that you just whacked the heating on for two weeks, then shut it off for two weeks, then whacked it on one week after Tiling, if it happened this way it will have contributed to the failure.
We can’t advise if we don’t have full disclosure and full answers to the questions asked.
Tiling is very much an exact science these days, with each product used relying on the next one to achieve a successful install.

 

[Old Mod]

What was Larsens final conclusion, did you receive a written report?

You say the bathrooms are fine, do they have the same wet ufh, or are they electric?

Your ufh system, whose manufacturers it?
Who installed it?

 

[Tileadvice]

Sorry, should be more exact.

We have a Air to Water, Ecodan system. Not sure how to describe the UFH, it is wet (pipes filled)

We built with a contractor therefore the only part we did outside the contract was tiling. The plumber and electrician turen on the heating to 15C then up by 2C over 5days to reach 25C for 2weeks. It was off for 2weeks prior to tiling. The tiler asked turn it on to 10C then to 15C at 1week after as he finished the ensuite (actually he used same Larsen batch for this) . He refused to tile the other two bathrooms as he found the bathroom tiles too hard (good quality). We ended up getting a different local tiler for the other 2bathroom a few weeks later ( diffetent larsen batches). That being said all bathrooms are fine! This makes me think concrete!

Yes Larsens took a sample but analysis was looking at the how the adhesive & Primer stuck to the tile when lifted. The report only concludes that their products did not bond to the floor by look and feel. No science based testing done! Everyone (tiler, builder, Larsen rep, tile shop, engineer, concrete rep) commented on the smell under the tile! No-one know what/How it was caused, likely to be the issue here..

We also got the concrete rep to take a floor sample and report confirms its integrity & strength.

The tiler discussed how the floor was clean, dust free, ready for tiling. He applied Larsen Acrylic Primer allover the ground floor. Used Lasen flexible rapid set adhesive. 75x75 tile. Adhesive covered the full tile ( no blobs)

The reputable building contractor discussed how they apply the same floor and UFH (even the type/plumber) to majority if their builds. But feels it is tile/Larsen product failure is the cause

 

[Old Mod]

Thank you, that’s an excellent description, and it makes it easier to eliminate certain aspects of the procedure.
No conclusion right at this moment, but it can now be researched for possible causes.
Then hopefully we can direct you as to what steps can be taken next to help determine the underlying cause of the failure.
Obviously we can only speculate as to the cause of the failure as we're trying to conduct an investigation on line and not in person.
But at least with the new information you have provided it will go a long way to help us suggest a course of action.
Alternatively you have the option of contacting the TTA (tile assoc) and they will carry out a full investigation, but obviously that will incur costs.


If the primer used is applied to thickly or is a too strong mix for the substrate, it can skin, in essence you are then just adhering the tiles to the primer and not the actual substrate beneath.
Just something to consider for the moment.

 

[Dumbo]

I doubt in any way shape or form it is a tile failure as adhesive is bonded to tile . Most adhesive manufacturers will send samples to their laboratories for testing rather than just looking at or feeling the sample maybe you should push for this . The solvent smell would suggest something is contaminated and nobody is putting their hand up to it.
I wonder if you were to take up another tile and if it smells of solvent again do a moisture test to see if their is some sort of liquid contamination in the screed .

 

[Old Mod]

Determining the type of floor screed you had installed is now becoming more important.
Many screeds now require some kind of mechanical abrasion before Tiling can commence, including cementitious screeds, if they’re liquid.
These are sprayed with a curing agent on completion and this leaves a waxy residue which must be removed.
I can’t imagine any regular primer adhering to such an unprepared surface.
A large number of screed companies return a week or two later to abraid the surface as part of the original install, however, in my experience they never complete this to a standard which is sufficiently high enough for Tiling.
The screed companies inspection would return a satisfactory result if they only reported on its integrity and strength.
I’m not suggesting they’re being underhanded, but it wouldn’t be in their interest to report the presence of the curing agent, especially if they were responsible for removing it in the first place.
In their defence tho, if the area inspected was free of contamination then their test results would return a positive report.
I’m only speculating of course, and it would be a strange coincidence too, as I have to deal with one of these screeds in the coming weeks, that’s the only reason I have a little knowledge of the procedure.

 

[Tileadvice]

Thank you for your help - you can see where I am at this point in time. Messy one!!

I must say I was extremely surprised too, the report is very weak as I was expected a conclusion based on data..not look and feel. What about the Primer - Is it possible for it to "go-off" or become contaminated which you make bonding fail? Yes - it was on the adhesive but it has to go somewhere - right?

I am trying to source a lab that that can do that chemical analysis like you mentioned. I am hearing they need to know what we are testing for specifically eg what trace elements etc