Job pricing, commercial

[Stef]

Got a phone call out the blue on Thursday to see if I could price up a big job.
5000+m2 of floors & walls.
This job is huge to me as I've never looked at commercial tiling on this scale before.
Looking for advice for tiling in general & a ball park figure for m2 on this.
Floor tiles are a mix of ceramics between 300x300, 600x600, 900x450 & walls are 300x300 porcs.
All floor tiling getting laid onto Ditra.
Any help from anyone in the know would be a great help to me.
Cheers Stef.

 

[AliGage]

Day rate x 3.5 years?

 

[Mr Tiler]

£153,300.00... some serious Wonga rite there lol

 

[Mr Tiler]

£30,600 in tax blimey that's more than half of the final year you will be working to pay the tax mans pocket.

 

[cr0ft]

Be careful. Large companies usually contract large companies to do their work. I would be sceptical! Of course you may run a large company in which case ignore what I say lol.

 

[J Sid]

Do you really want the head ache of trying to get your money each month ?

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

before you even start pricing you want to know payment terms in writing 5000 2m sounds a lot but with a good team of tilers with you could tile this in six to eight weeks so if the terms are 30 days you could end up waiting 60 days so you have finished the job and still be waiting for payment .remeber to factor in 5% retions 2% main contractors discount .so only 2 reasons for a call out of the blue his old tilers tell him to sling his hook or is checking his tilers is not over charging tread carefuly .on pricing break down each room and price one at a time .after cost work on a margin 2 week payments 30% 30 day payments ie 60 realy 50% dont forget to put your day rate in as well as when runing a job like that you spend more time sorting the work and tilers and you wont get as much tiling done yourself as you think

 

[Stef]

We already have a terms & conditions set out, just needs a few tweeks & a couple of other things need ironed out.
It's a big step up for me but I'm not going it alone, we have a QS already on board & are going back for another couple of site meetings next week.
Just trying to get a ball park figure regarding a m2 price
The terms & conditions are almost the same as you have stated Ray.

 

[Dougs Third Go]

is it big areas where you can just get your head down and crack on?

 

[Stef]

is it big areas where you can just get your head down and crack on?

Yeah Doug, downstairs Atrium is about 1000 to 1500m2, then it's lift access x4 over 10/11 floors, roughly 80m2 I think.

 

[Peter]

£12 before tax is probably what they're thinking. Still good money to be made.

 

[Stef]

£12 before tax is probably what they're thinking. Still good money to be made.

Cheers Peter, it will get priced accordingly & if we get it then there will be good money to be made for everyone.
I reckon with the size of the areas a good tiler will knock out 25m2 per day.
Will find out by the end of the week.

 

[Peter]

Can work well if you're paying 5 tilers £80 a day

 

[Time's Ran Out]

There are only a few tiling companies that can finance this type of job. They usually have 10-20 permanent Tilers on their books and the Tilers would be on meterage at prices already quoted , so there's Nowt in it for you!
I'd ask where did they get my name? Who did the previously use? Did they get paid for previous work?

 

[Spud]

You need to average out 12m2 per day per man then put you margin on , materials and then the builders discount and retention I would be looking 200k

 

[Pebbs]

Stef,

Theres more than the cost of the m2 rate to consider on a large scale contract. You have to take on board a multitude of responsibilities. Firstly you have to make sure all your insurances are in order, if they are not then you have to make a budget allowance for those. Next you have to check if there are any prelims on the contract, mainly for site supervision, pre-contract meetings. They will expect you to produce method statements, safety returns done on a daily basis (by your site supervisor) inductions, weekly progress meetings, you need a programme of works before you accept any contract. Check that the working hours are normal, if they are not you have to make allowances for out of hours work. Who will be in charge of getting the materials to the work areas, if its you, your going to have to make allowances for labourers. All your equipment has to be pat tested with the certs. OMG the list goes on and on. The one most important thing I always ask is this...are the works of a continuous nature? If they are not, then your going to have lads standing around whilst waiting for the trades ahead, that is the killer on large contracts. They always say we hope so...well hope is not good enough, unless you can slot your lads onto another contract your scuppered. You have then to calculate all these things into your costing sheet, before you even think about how much your going to charge for the meterage rate. Always build in the 7.5% into the overall cost, they will always hold back their 5% retention, for at least a year after the job is completed and you will always get calls to go and do snags after completion of the works. The 2.5% is for the MCD, but some main contractors will try and go for 5% discount.
The biggest killer is always going to be the payment terms, if you are one day over that application date, they will bang it into the following month. So that means you could be waiting 12 weeks to get paid. So your cash flow has to be monitored at all times.
My advice to you is this, go with your gut feeling at the meeting, if you get a bad feeling, go with it. I have worked with a lot of main contractors over the years, some are ok, some are scum of the earth and then some are decent. Unfortuntely the decent ones are few and far between.
Always check out who you are dealing with reputation wise, and run a credit report, ask around, ask a lot of questions, this is your livelihood, you hit one bad contract and it can wipe you out.

Good luck

Lynn

 

[Stef]

Cheers folks, there's a lot of ifs buts n mibees towards this tender,
I'm not scrimping on price here, I'm going in with a good bit of knowledge, if we get it then there will be good money to be made, if we don't then we will just roll into the next job in hand.

 

[jonnyc]

I think this is a big job for anyone.you are a brave man if you think you can finance this and cost right. What's the biggest job you have done to date and how many Tilers did you need to employ for that job.i have done a fair few around 500 sq mts but I was using my own employees and not having to worry about sinewssinews

 

[Stef]

I think this is a big job for anyone.you are a brave man if you think you can finance this and cost right. What's the biggest job you have done to date and how many Tilers did you need to employ for that job.i have done a fair few around 500 sq mts but I was using my own employees and not having to worry about sinewssinews

Jonny, this is a huge job for me, the biggest I have done is about 600m2 but you have to take a chance now & again, we will be well covered with legal stuff but I'm a great believer if you don't ask you don't get so we will take a punt on this.
Price it up, if we get it happy days if not then we move on..

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

£12 before tax is probably what they're thinking. Still good money to be made.

turn over is vanity profit is sanity £12 2m is insanity.on a job like this minmum paper work on a job like this £1/ 2m theres 5 grand gone 5 fixers standing about one day a week x8 weeks there goes another 4 grand gone now snagging making good damage caused by others 2 grand gone so things are going well only 11 grand gone so far then the pently claues .the only way you will earn money on a job like this to start at 6 pm when all the other trades have gone lay floors in rappid set until 2 am then go home same all the way through .walk a way at £12 2m its already costing you £2.20 2m and you have not laid a tile

 

[AliGage]

Stef ill be honest, i wouldnt have a clue where to start. But like you im sure i could figure it out and would be as excited as you probably are.

If you don't put one leg in front of the other you'll never get anywhere.
I wish you the best of luck and hope all goes well for you buddy.

 

[charlie1]

Stef here is my take on it, I'd be shi77ing myself tbh but I tell you what, you take this on and put everything in to it and turn it round to a decent standard then it will I'm sure make a much better tiler of you. He who dares wins. Do all the homework you can (peebs looks like the one I'd be calling on this one) but also the likes of phil Hobson and a few others. Get some good tilers on board even if you need to get some from here but always remember, be firm, the job gets done your way end of story. If I'm thinking right, I don't even imagine you would be doing much or even any of the tiling, I'd imagine you will be too busy setting out all the different bays and generally keeping control of the job.

 

[aphilp]

Stef it is great that so many members have given you such good advice.

It is always a big step to take, but one which should be taken at some stage when you feel confident to do so. Pebbs is so right about the London contractors and payment conditions.

I have not lived in Scotland for a long time, but if you are working for a company based in Scotland hopefully you will not have to cope with the London dog eat dog mentality.

Feel free to call me if you need any advice.

Best Wishes

Anne

 

[mma]

Some great advice on here for you Stef! For a forum that has been very slow for the last few months, it's great to see advice and heip coming from all over the UK!!

 

[Stef]

Thanks again folks for all the advice.
It's truly appreciated.
That's what makes this forum great.

 

[John Benton]

I would love to be able to give you some advice Stef on big contracts but alas my knowledge is limited in that area for tiling. However, in a previous life I was dealing with contracts from as small as £500, right up to 300k. What I will say is make sure that you are watertight as they say because the customer i.e. who you are are working for will look for any small detail to hold back/not pay you at all. It's a massive step to move onto a contract of this size. I'm sure you have the bottle to go ahead with it and I'm sure you will project manage it well. It's knowing what to do and how to approach and handle things if they go wrong. But the same has been said, nobody ever moved forward by standing still. Good luck on this one.

 

[jonnyc]

best of luck if you get it .
my last comment is cash flow.
doesnt matter what contract and payment terms you sign up for. if your employer starts getting late with payments for whatever reason you have problems . its easy to say that you would pull off but could you afford to if it jeapordised a payment forthcoming. sub contractors waiting for money . why should they wait if just because you have delays with your contract.
way i see it it is not so much pulling off the job more being able to ensure fluid payments to look after your sub contractors.
dont know what the job is worth but if say 200k i would not even consider if i did not have at least 50 k in bank and a 20 k overdraught.evn then i would be worried .